Repro or Rebuild steering box?

[hotrodsurplus]

Here's a pic of the kind of wear that causes a huge dead-spot in the steering box, although this isn't actually a VW Box (BMW 2002) the wear that happens to the Worm Shaft is very similar.

I'm investigating what means of repairing this kind of wear currently exist.

That's exactly the galling that kills a box. And it was exceptionally rare on the Type I boxes that I disassembled. In fact the only time I saw that wear was in Super Beetle boxes. It was the exception to the rule to find a rebuildable SB steering box. That explains why they're so damn expensive. Super Beetles probably should get converted to '75-and-later rack-pinion steering.

The only times I saw that type of galling on Type I boxes was on steering boxes that were in off-road cars or where people tried to eliminate the slack by cranking the sector adjuster. Galling like that on a roller translates to the same type of galling on the worm gear. At this point steering gears are so plentiful that it doesn't make sense to repair those parts.

[axam48ida]

Great post HOTrod surplus,
I made a few of the worn gear adjusting wrenchs for some friends a while back.
 also the VW handbook on the roller steering and ball bearing boxes is very helpful.
here is a photo of the wrenches
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[hotrodsurplus]

I am on my 4th TRW box.  Keep switching them out thinking the next one is going to be the magic solution.  The last one was a bit better, but damn I am tired of the process.....

Okay, don't take this the wrong way but are you positive there isn't a little bit of operator error involved? Remember, if the steering box isn't exactly in the centered position when the wheels get aligned then you will get slop in the system. The box is tight only when it's on center. What makes me wonder if you've installed them properly is that you're having problems with every box you install. Statistically that's exceptional; even if TRW has a QC issue it's unlikely that you'd get a consistently bad run of boxes.

I say this because I have a hard time accepting that TRW makes such consistently bad steering boxes. I admit it's been almost 15 years since I've been in a TRW box but they were beautifully made. If there's in fact fault with the boxes then it could very well be in the assembly procedure. As is the case with most bearings, the assemblies can lose preload as they break in and that can cause the system to go loose and sloppy.

You could fix slop in the input shaft easily by removing the preload from the sector shaft and resetting the input shaft preload with the giant broached nut as I described in the rebuild part. Only after you did that could you set the sector preload.

You might have to start from square one and re-set the steering wheel to point straight when the box is in the absolutely straight position. Many steering wheels are installed crooked which causes people to align their cars with the steering box in the off-center position.

I'd be curious to go through one of these 'bad' TRW boxes. Anyone got a junker they'd like to donate to the cause?

[hotrodsurplus]

Great post HOTrod surplus,
I made a few of the worn gear adjusting wrenchs for some friends a while back.
 also the VW handbook on the roller steering and ball bearing boxes is very helpful.
here is a photo of the wrenches

Thanks! Say, what would it take to get that handbook scanned?

I just looked in one of my Without Guesswork books and rediscovered the input-shaft preload. Bear in mind that these measurements are based on the steering box without the sector shaft in place. We used a fish scale to pull on a piece of flat stock that we bolted to the steering coupler.

1.5-2.5 kg/cm (1.3-2.2 lb/in) without oil seal
2.0-30 kg/cm (1.7-2.6 lb/in) with oil seal.

[qubek]

No wonder. Newer boxes were supposed to be filled with grease, not oil.

Not so, at least with the type of grease we're familiar with. Until the mid '60s Volkswagen specified heavy gear oil for steering boxes (including roller boxes). From that point it specified what it referred to as 'liquid grease.' It's not grease as you'd get from a grease gun. It's runny like a super-duper-thick oil--think molasses or honey.

You don't want conventional chassis grease in our style of steering box. Solid grease will displace in this style of steering box leaving the mechanism to operate without the benefit of lubrication.

Out of the hundreds of boxes I did I never got an untouched one that was filled with grease. You could see where people jammed grease into them but it usually ended up as a lump in the box lid.

Ford (and I'm sure others) specified a specific type of grease in its steering boxes starting in the '50s but those boxes operated in a different environment than our boxes do. First, they're oriented on their side and not vertically as they are in our application so the grease is more likely to stay in contact with the mechanism. Second, the heat from the engine compartment melts the grease and causes it to re-flow into the mechanism.

We had the benefit of a bank of VWoA books that took up almost a whole wall. Volkswagen specified heavy gear oil for early boxes and the liquid grease for later ones. It specifically discouraged hard chassis grease.

I did not specify the type of "grease" (sorry for being imprecise), as I have old type of steering boxes in my Beetles and I either checked and forgot or even didn't bother to check the exact specifications of the newer boxes' lubricant. But I do recall a discussion with an old VW mechanic who mentioned something similar to what you say. Anyway, my point was that as far as I remember, if you fill the newer box with oil, it will leak, because they were not designed to be filled with oil.

[hotrodsurplus]

I did not specify the type of "grease" (sorry for being imprecise), as I have old type of steering boxes in my Beetles and I either checked and forgot or even didn't bother to check the exact specifications of the newer boxes' lubricant. But I do recall a discussion with an old VW mechanic who mentioned something similar to what you say. Anyway, my point was that as far as I remember, if you fill the newer box with oil, it will leak, because they were not designed to be filled with oil.

Point taken. I just didn't want people to assume that the grease we're all familiar with is the appropriate stuff for the steering boxes.

That said, the liquid grease Volkswagen used in the boxes is still quite viscous and probably just as likely to leak as a conventional heavy gear oil would. By the time I got around to these boxes the grease/oil/whatever poured out pretty freely. I think it would've been just as likely to leak as a conventional oil would.

This is just a stab in the dark but I think Volkswagen specified a liquid grease for its shear strength and impact resistance.

As for leakage with the new boxes, it could be that TRW specified a poor-quality seal or installed it wrong. Or it didn't finish the sector shaft properly. The guy who did the boxes prior to me used conventional hard grease because the boxes he did leaked. Well leaking was inevitable as he bead blasted the sector shafts. The seal couldn't do its job properly.

Eventually I made a masking sleeve and blasted only the ends of the sector shafts and merely polished the seal-bearing surface. My rebuilds didn't leak with the commercial liquid grease so that's how I did them from then on.

I think it could be considered normal for an old box to leak whether it's filled with oil or liquid grease. The seals last only so long.

[deano]

Would you consider rebuilding Type 1 steering boxes today?

[BeetleBug]

Would you consider rebuilding Type 1 steering boxes today?

X2

[hotrodsurplus]

Would you consider rebuilding Type 1 steering boxes today?

Yeah,I would.  I'm on my way to a job but i'm going to pm you later on.

[deano]

Dan Lawson suggested using a combination of grease and gear oil, mixed well (season to taste), to create a paste that would be similar to what VW used. He also said using straight 90wt gear oil would leak when the outside temps were warm...

[axam48ida]

Another old trick is to use the original STP.....oil additive

[roland]

I can offer some information about rebuilding steering boxes. I did hundreds of them when I worked for Kymco in the '90s. Warning: this is going to get long.

[...]

This may or may not work for you but it worked for me hundreds of times. The steering box in my Thing is one of my rebuilds and 15 years later it's as tight as the day it was made.

Very good info! thanks.

[cel]

Thanks! Say, what would it take to get that handbook scanned?

Hi!
The german version (main parts) can be found here:
http://vwbus2.dyndns.org/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/rlf_vorderachse_lenkung/teil_2/index.htm#V8

Nice greetings
Marcel

[Bendik]

       

The one in my car was lubricated with a mix of sawdust and water and had plenty of this galling.. 

[hotrodsurplus]

The german version (main parts) can be found here:
http://vwbus2.dyndns.org/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/rlf_vorderachse_lenkung/teil_2/index.htm#V8

Nice greetings
Marcel

Awesome. This is where it pays to be married to a German-speaking Swiss.

[Fasterbrit]

Fantastic info Hotrodsurplus! Every day is a school day, as they say. Armed with this extra info I'm sure most people will be able to make their steering better.

Thanks for sharing, it's posts like these that emphasise what forums are all about: sharing info and experience to help others. Hats off to you dude 

[benssp]

No wonder. Newer boxes were supposed to be filled with grease, not oil.

As for VW classic parts, I don't know what they have but how can they hove other boxes then TRW if TRW was OEM for Volkswagen?

VW Classic parts list it as a Classic+ part which is a reproduction/OE supplier item

[hotrodsurplus]

No wonder. Newer boxes were supposed to be filled with grease, not oil.

As for VW classic parts, I don't know what they have but how can they hove other boxes then TRW if TRW was OEM for Volkswagen?

VW Classic parts list it as a Classic+ part which is a reproduction/OE supplier item

Thanks again, Torque, for the props.

Regarding suppliers, as far as I could tell Volkswagen used four: Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen, Ross, Gemmer, and TRW. Useless trivia: Ford (and probably others) used Gemmer and Ross for years. I can almost guarantee that Gemmer and Ross sold off their tooling for the application. Who knows where it went but that could be the tooling one or more of the non-TRW suppliers use. 

[deano]

Okay, here's another approach.. Can the TRW boxes be fixed...adjusted, shimed?

[cel]

The german version (main parts) can be found here:
http://vwbus2.dyndns.org/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/rlf_vorderachse_lenkung/teil_2/index.htm#V8

Nice greetings
Marcel

Awesome. This is where it pays to be married to a German-speaking Swiss.

Perfect! 

The sites from michael knappmann http://vwbus2.dyndns.org/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/reparat0.htm has tons of great info, check it out.
Many thanks to the people who keeps this great sites allive!

Nice greetings
Marcel

[Bendik]

No wonder. Newer boxes were supposed to be filled with grease, not oil.

As for VW classic parts, I don't know what they have but how can they hove other boxes then TRW if TRW was OEM for Volkswagen?

VW Classic parts list it as a Classic+ part which is a reproduction/OE supplier item

Meaning that the boxes from VW Classic is probably TRW as well?

[javabug]

Okay, here's another approach.. Can the TRW boxes be fixed...adjusted, shimed?

I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps they just need to be "set up."

[RichardinNZ]

I don't know a lot about steering boxes, but used Penrite Steering Box Lube in mine (which was originally oil filled and leaking)...is this the type of grease that VW specified?
The box doesn't leak now and actually works...which it didn't do before!

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/vintage,-veteran-&-classic/steering_box_lubricant

Thanks
Richard

[Worm]

So far as "centering" my TRW box.... I will look at that.  Good info.  Thanks!