detailing fuchs - primer to use?

[pupjoint]

recently got a set of polished flat 4 fuchs, brand new in box. trying to detail them now.

i used the blue 3M painter's tape to mask off the appropriate sections. 

wana paint the black areas.

what sort of primer is best for aluminum?

since the surface is polished now, best would be for me to sand it down a bit before i apply the primer and paint?

any tips welcomed.

i showed the rims to some local shops but they dont seem to be interested in such small jobs.   

[rspsteve]

Hi...i would key the area to be painted then use some sort of etch primer ....what type of blck painr will you be going for?

[pupjoint]

not sure about the paint yet....i read somewhere it should be Rustoleum Black or something.....having some issues getting correct stuff in this part of the world.  still looking around.

[j-f]

On oem Fuchs wheels, epoxy paint adhere correctly on magnesium and protects it against corrosion. I think it should be strong enough to stick on polish aluminum after you sand it.
When I painted my Fuchs, I used a polyurethane paint and it peels.

[pupjoint]

some pics....not much progress

[65bug]

Those sure are pretty! Flat 4 makes some nice stuff!

[Brew 66]

I have the same wheels. I sent them over to Al Reed an had him detail and powder coat them. I'm very happy.

[Rennsurfer]

Don't know what part of the world you're located, Pupjoint... but etching primer first, sanding primer, second, and depending your tastes regarding finish... satin, semi-gloss, or gloss on the final top coat. Which I'm guessing will be black. Good luck and please post up pictures when you're done.  

[DKK Ted]

I have the same wheels. I sent them over to Al Reed an had him detail and powder coat them. I'm very happy.

Very nice wheels, car is real nice!

Ted

[pupjoint]

Don't what part of the world you're located, Pupjoint... but etching primer first, sanding primer, second, and depending your tastes regarding finish... satin, semi-gloss, or gloss on the final top coat. Which I'm guessing will be black. Good luck and please post up pictures when you're done. 

i am in Asia. i personally prefer the factory anodized look, but cant find any shops that can do it "properly" yet without me worrying them screwing up my rims. thats why i am keeping my original Deep 6 and get these flat 4 ones to mount on the car first.

if possible i want to get rid of the polished finished and paint it black, but for now, black would do, just like Brew66's ride.

will post more pics as i go along.

[Brew 66]

I have the same wheels. I sent them over to Al Reed an had him detail and powder coat them. I'm very happy.

Very nice wheels, car is real nice!

Ted

Thanks Ted, other than the wheels it is basically untouched since my Dad and I built it in 1991!

[Rennsurfer]

i am in Asia. i personally prefer the factory anodized look, but cant find any shops that can do it "properly" yet without me worrying them screwing up my rims. thats why i am keeping my original Deep 6 and get these flat 4 ones to mount on the car first.

if possible i want to get rid of the polished finished and paint it black, but for now, black would do, just like Brew66's ride.

will post more pics as i go along.

I agree about the factory anodized finish. I've never cared for them any other way... even in the late seventies when I built my first Cal Looker. Hopefully, one day, you'll get your wheels' finish the way that you like them. Here's a shot mine. Al Reed did a fantastic anodizing job on these.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[danny gabbard]

In the aircraft industry they like to use zink cromate as base on alum. Do yourself a favor pup joint, Rough surface of painted areas with sandpaper and a red scotchbrite before ya spray anything, Sand lug areas a lil extra !! Something I like to do too , Is match primer with top coat, If you chip paint , It still is black under. DTM primer from valspar sticks real good to alum !! Good luck.

[pupjoint]

In the aircraft industry they like to use zink cromate as base on alum. Do yourself a favor pup joint, Rough surface of painted areas with sandpaper and a red scotchbrite before ya spray anything, Sand lug areas a lil extra !! Something I like to do too , Is match primer with top coat, If you chip paint , It still is black under. DTM primer from valspar sticks real good to alum !! Good luck.

thanks danny. 

[Zach Gomulka]

Porsche didn't use primer, why do you need to?

[Rennsurfer]

Porsche didn't use primer, why do you need to?

Because he's painting on polished cast aluminum and not anodized forged aluminum, for starters. The etching primer is a great liaison between this particular surface and the latter coats. 

[danny gabbard]

Porsche didn't use primer, why do you need to?

So how do ya get it to stick ?

[Zach Gomulka]

I agree etching primer is the preferred primer for aluminium. I do not have experience painting polished aluminium (that's why I'm asking) but on chrome wheels I've had great luck just scuffing it thoroughly with red scotch brite pad, cleaning, then painting. It seems to me that 2 coats of primer (especially a sandable primer) then paint is going to leave one thick edge that will be more susceptible to chipping, etc.

I've always wondered how Al Reed powdercoats a detailed wheel...

[Rennsurfer]

I agree etching primer is the preferred primer for aluminium. I do not have experience painting polished aluminium (that's why I'm asking) but on chrome wheels I've had great luck just scuffing it thoroughly with red scotch brite pad, cleaning, then painting. It seems to me that 2 coats of primer (especially a sandable primer) then paint is going to leave one thick edge that will be more susceptible to chipping, etc.

I've always wondered how Al Reed powdercoats a detailed wheel...

You bring up a good point regarding the interface between the built up paint level and the unpainted portions of the wheel. The Fuchs plant (so we were told when we worked for the dealers) dipped the wheels from the back side with the spokes facing upward. Recently, I've heard where people have used water, because of it's self leveling properties. So many theories, but achieving a smooth surface with no edge... that's the key.

Research time for me.

[65bug]

Can't you buy those ALREADY painted? See if you can exchange them...................

[danny gabbard]

I would think originaly the wheels where anodized and not painted, To different ways of coating and build up thickness.

[BeetleBug]

Tape the backside of the holes and fill the rim with paint. When happy with the height of the paint puncture the tape and let dry - done! Easy. See here: http://www.themotoringjournal.com/featured-cars/refinishing-fuchs-at-home.html

Or you can copy Magnus: http://magnuswalker911.blogspot.no/2012/08/diy-rim-refinishing.html

On a chromed wheel my experience is that you can use whatever primer you want, the paint will come off no matter what. Rough the surface, use a good etch primer and it will stick a little better.

-BB-

[beatnik beetle]

Some good tips here...personally i like to keep any paint applied to be kept to a minimum.I don't like the step between the polished area/black to be too big a step...and Black primer is a big help

[speedwell]

just found this in a vw /porsche classic
don't know if it hepls 

[danny gabbard]

About 30 years ago when I got into paintng, There was a sealer from a company called (RM) they made this stuff that came in a glass jug, Because it was eating up the metal containers that it use to come in. 811 sealer. It smell'd like vinager. But it was the best thing I ever used to paint stuff that adhesion was a problem, Like chrome- glass-bare alum etc....

[Rennsurfer]

Can't you buy those ALREADY painted? See if you can exchange them...................

No, they're not available that way from Flat Four, unless they've added them to their line up.

Pupjoint, my roommate just sent me this link and it's pretty cool!

http://www.themotoringjournal.com/featured-cars/refinishing-fuchs-at-home.html

[pupjoint]

nice info guys, thanks!

no, flat 4 doesnt offer then in detailed

[Dustin]

When Al Reed did mine, they were just masked off, scuffed and a thin coat of semi-gloss black applied. Hardly any paint thickness and scratched really easy! I also had him remove the casting marks from the faces of my Flat 4's.

I got my 4.5"/5.5" Flat 4's back when they first came out and once detailed, few people noticed they weren't real Fuch's.

He's a super nice guy, very reasonable prices and just slightly quicker than a body shop!  

Anodizing will cost you dearly though!

[hotrodsurplus]

The solution is easier than you think. No scuffing necessary even. There are at least two proven ways.

Before I explain, understand the property that prevents paint from sticking to bare aluminum. Bare aluminum is reactive in the presence of oxygen. When scratched (sanded, machined, etc) the aluminum oxidizes. Only instead of forming rust as steel does it develops a microscopically thin skin that prevents oxygen from reaching the aluminum and oxidizing it further.

This aluminum-oxide skin is so hard, though, that nothing really sticks to it. The Mohs scale represents a material's resistance to scratching. Talc, the softest, is a 1 on that scale; a diamond, the hardest at 10. We all know that it would be impossible to get paint to stick to porcelain and it's about a 6. Well aluminum oxide is 9. That's one point shy of a diamond (the reason aluminum oxide is so popular in the abrasive industry). So for our purposes bare aluminum (like any bare polished wheels) are literally unpaintable. You can get a good mechanical adhesion by sandblasting the wheels and baking on a polyester or epoxy finish (powder coating) but it's a mechanical bond over top a craggy oxidized aluminum surface.

We need to passivate the aluminum to reliably paint it. Passivation means removing the reactive property of a material so it won't form an oxide layer. Fuchs did this by anodizing the wheels. Anodizing forms a modified oxide layer that almost magically accepts paint. There are basically three types of anodizing. I'm almost positive that Fuchs used Type I which uses heat and a hexavalent chromate compound so is therefore out of our league.

There's another solution. Type II anodizing (sulfuric) accepts paint almost as well as Type I but is A) cheap and B) easy to do at home with chemicals available at most home-improvement stores. Years ago this guy made available for free all of the recipes and techniques to safely anodize aluminum at home. He now sells the instructions along with kits to make the process even easier. These chemicals don't ship overseas but as noted they should be available worldwide.

http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html

Anodizing is THE way to properly finish a Fuchs wheel. It's how the wheels assume that slightly dull finish. The anodizing also makes the wheels very corrosion resistant. FWIW, the 14-inch Fuchs wheels I had weren't painted; the black part was dyed anodize finish. You can add dyes to the sealing process and dip part of the wheel to get the color and the entire wheel to seal the finish.

The second way to passivate aluminum is by an alodine treatment. Alodine is also a chromate conversion but the trivalent chromate compounds introduced recently make the process safe for home users. Alodine lends itself to dipping, spraying, and brushing even. You can treat certain areas of a part with alodine without exposing the entire part, which is good if you want to polish the bare areas. Aluminum treated with an alodine coating accepts paint beautifully.

Aircraft shops like Aircraft Spruce carry Alodine 1201. European users should be able to get Alodine 1201 easily as it is made by Henkel and most of us know Henkel's role in war-era Germany.   

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alodine1201.php

I've painted over aluminum treated with Henkel's Alodine 1201. I used just plain Rust Oleum. These were for gas caps and the finish held up amazingly well--probably better than on steel. Both methods prepare aluminum to accept paint. One is a little easier than the other but both methods are well within the scope of us hobbyists.

[Jon]

I have refinished a number of fuchs wheels. Where I work there is a anodizing company some buildings down the road, I have had them reverse the process to remove the anodizing. But their baths cant remove any clearcoat or even the stock black color, so I always have to use paint stripper to get rid of all the paint before I take them overthere. This leads me to believe that the black is paint, as apposed to dye.

Does anyone know how shiny the fuchs was before they were anodized the first time?
The company tells me that they will not re anodize any CAST wheels, as it ruins the wheels... but luckily the real fuchs were forged.