Super Stocker motor specs

[modnrod]

Gday.
My first post on the board, please take it easy on me!  I joined partly as I was hoping to get some opinions from the people here who have seen and done it all before........and don't mind the occasional stupid question from a new member.

I am about to build my own version of a "super stocker" '73 Beetle. What I would like is to have something that "looks" almost standard, preferably even with the single Solex 34 in the middle, and pipes that exit out the stock twin reliefs at the rear valance, even down to a stock-appearing round air cleaner on top.
All painted fashionably satin black of course. I did for a moment consider "hammertone", and yes I come from the right era (about 30 years ago!), but basic black is clean and un-inspiring.......perfect!
Also, where I live, temps get to over 45*C for a lot of summer. DP heads live for 50K km then crack, good tuning helps a bit but not much. I have considered Type4, but prefer Type1 if possible.

So, here is my recipe for a superstock street motor that cruises in the desert heat. I'm aiming for economy at 110-120kph, and the ability to leave black marks for 30ft and be across the lights by 2 car lengths should any local V8 sedan get any stupid ideas about the "old fart" driving the old VW. I have done this thing for a while now, and I never tire of it! Hopefully I never will.
Ideally I would like to build a 76 crank (I have one in the shed) x 83 bore (REALLY thick barrels, custom pistons), but finding the stock 1500cc T1 cylinders is almost impossible.
My second option is 69 x 88 thickwall, along with Web 86 cam, 1.4/1.25 rockers, custom centremount and mod Solex 34pict, and ported Single Port heads for the high heat, the torque off idle, and also for the look!
Either way I'm hoping for 70-80 rwhp under 5500 or 6000rpm. I know DP heads have more flow, I have a set of 40x35 ported 043s in my shed that I made 120hp with on a 1776, but prefer the looks, toughness and simplicity of the SP.

How does this engine combo sound?

Great forum by the way!

PS anyone have a set of 1500cc cylinders they don't need? Please? 

[cedric]

Wout on the lounge sell them

[Zach Gomulka]

A stock carb is a big limiting factor. Even a pair of Kadrons would do wonders for an engine like that, but I can appreciate the fact that you want to keep the stock carb. I would build it big, and think more about torque than horsepower. 92mm thick wall cylinders with the 76 crank you already have will give you 2021cc. Your 043's will widen the power band, I say use them. My opinion is that high ratio rockers will go to waste (with the stock carb). If you have the option, bore out the carb, venturi and throttle bore. It will be a sub 5k rpm engine, but it will easily meet your requirements. Cooling is another article, but it can be done where you live. I live in a very similar climate.

[modnrod]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. Cedric, thanks for the leads on the barrels, I'll check them out.
Gday Zach. I know I'm limiting myself by looking at SP heads, as said I have some nice tweaked 043s in the shed, but I'm really just looking at doing something a bit different for the challenge of it all. Out of all the Vws over the years, the one I had the most fun with was a little 1641 with Solex 30 and stock intake (DP heads though), even though it only spun up to 5500, with a 4.37 diff and 185/60R14s this little car ran mid-15s all day, and was just a bullet off the mark, really good fun. It was also probably the slowest easily, but the ridiculousness of it all had me laughing off the line every time.
The idea is to do something similar, being aware of the restrictions, but seeing what I can do.
I saw on another thread a comment by Dyno Don about "D" porting the inlets, and not taking too much off the roof, things like that are something I'm looking forward to measuring and testing.
Intake idea at the moment is Solex 34 with removed venturi and a 4"-6" stack (inside the air cleaner body), ported to take 36mm blade, on a custom built-to-suit manifold. I'll also make the exhaust.
Do you rekn dual Kads/Solex etc, would be worth an extra 10HP, 15HP ove rthe mod single Solex? Not much at all?
I've never played with SP heads before.

I'm looking at placing an order for the initial parts in the next few weeks, hence the questions.
Thanks again.
Dave

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
A couple of opinions from here:

1 Dont use the Web 86. while it is fairly OK in the lower rpms it sucks almost anywhere else.  The ratio tockers will only kill what ever extra bottom end torque it´ll provide over stock as long as the displacement is only 1700 cc.

2 Absolutely no need of hogging out the 34 for that displacement. You will loose the option of running an SVDA distr. and the engine will be rather difficult to tune. Yes, you will gather a few hundred rpms of power above the curve, but you will loose driveability.

3 Sgl. ports don´t rev that high. 80 whp on a 1700 cc street engine that will survive in that kind of heat is uthopia. Will not happen.

That said, the idea is´nt bad, it just needs some modificaction.

I will begin backwards so to speak, with the intake,  because that is going to be your limiting factor.
There is no need of inventing the wheel again with the center section. CB/Empi has their "Performance center section" which is quite OK. and will support the kind of power you are looking for easily. The end castings is another matter. If you have the cahoneys to make a set that has a D port shape at the head and fits the centersection diameter, so the intake flows well, there is the first part of the ticket to an interesting sgl. port set up.
Since you have the 76 mm crankshaft I suggest you use that, for instance along with a set of thick wall 88´s (1850 cc) By increasing the displacement you get the option of a much larger intake velocity across the board. That means that we get a wider range within which we can choose camshafts.
Now, I have not built exactly such an engine, but about 2 months ago I built a 1914 sgl port engine for a customer, with dual Kadrons though. The customer´s wallet is well equipped so to speak, and he wanted us to try out a few things on the dyno to see what gave the best solution for him.  I had 2 different cams in it and tried 3 diiferent exhaust systems. And to my great surprise this particular engine liked the plain ol´ W100 cam the best. It also did´nt like any fancy headers except for peak hp. So in the end I wound up with a regular 1 3/8 BP header and a CSP stainless sgl q.
With that in mind, that W100 cam would be my first choice. Since you "now" have the displacement to exploit more time area on the valve, it would be a good idea to add 1,25 rockers on the intake alone, getting an intake valve lift at approx. ,477".
Since you are in warm ambient climate we need to take a look at dcr. and the type of fuel that you want to use. So no hints there until I know what I´m up against.
As always, but ESPECALLY in warm climate, correct deck height is paramount. You MUST be within 1 and 1,25 mm max.  If it turns out to be a problem you must widen the combustion chamber or dish the pistons.
356 piston cooling would be a good thing too.

The mods you want to make to the airfilter is more or less spot on.
As said, there is no need to hog out the carb. A stock carb with a 30 mm Venturi will handle 90 hp easy. 95 on a good day. (In street trim of course)

T

[modnrod]

Gday Torben.
Thank you for your reply, and to put me in the right spot as far as the requirements go for what I'm chasing.
I can build end pieces to match the CB centre, so I will do that. I will also stick to the Solex 34, I've always liked them, especially with a SVDA, so I will restrain myself!
I always build my own pipes, so I will look at something light that flows OK, but fits really well with the right lengths in 1.3/8".

I was going to set deck height at .04" or 1mm, but as you said no bigger than 1.25mm. I was hoping to run our normal fuel (91Octane) and 8:1, but it is marginal with DCR. I have the option of 95Octane if needed, but would rather use the cheaper fuel, so if I need 7.5:1 to run with a 236*-240* @ .050 cam then I will. I was also considering 111*LSA adv 4*, but again I will have to check DCR as you said, but I'm aiming for good lift but using the rockers more than the lobes to achieve it.

And finally, the high temperatures here? I know that even if I had 80rwhp underfoot, I wouldn't be using 1/4 of that when it's 45*C outside.........
I also have a few tricks that help, like a very fine droplet water mister spray aimed at the cooling fan intake, just for when the temps get really hot.

356 piston cooling? Do they have oil squirters like the Evo and Supra motors? Can that be done in a Type 1?
Thanks again.

[DWL_Puavo]

Piston cooling with oil squirters can be done with Porsche 964 parts (for example, Mittelmotor's part 1,1111B). They are simply drilled through main bearing saddles so that they operate on the main oil line. They have internal 2 bar valve so they won't affect your idle oil pressure. Quite easy to do. They'll add a lot of oil temperature so you should at least have doghouse cooler (or a bigger Type4 cooler fitted in doghouse) or some sort of external added cooler.

The drill needed is a normal 6,x mm (can't remember the exact size just now!), and drilling is possible in a normal bench drill with tiltable table.

[181]

wow, you are heading a bit in my way, these are the parts I collected for my new engine build:

AS21 low mileage engine case, bronze sleeves on lifters

DPR 69mm crank

flywheel 8 dowells, lightened

I beam rods with ARP bolts

NOS singleport heads 35x32 valves

92 mm thickwall cylinders

Web 110/119 split duration cam with matching Web lifters

blueprinted 26 mm Schadek oil pump

doghouse cooling, stock shroud with flaps

SVDA or 019 distributor, I have both

1 1/2 header and single QP, no heater boxes

I´m still not sure on the cam can somebody chime in?

I decided to go with Kadrons from KaddieShack

[Torben Alstrup]

911 parts is an option. I was referring to the more simple, but quite efficient 356 style, where the rods are notched 4 places on each side to direct excessive oil to the pistons and cylinders.

Moving the LSA around helps only minor at best and can (and most likely will) have great negative effect on overall performance.

The reduction of CR to be able to run on the cheap fuel is "false money saved" most of the time. Reason is that the engine will be equally less eficcient. Therefore only use marginally less fuel on flat roads, everywhere else it will use more. I always build for the highest octane that is available everywhere, unless I build specific engines.

If you want to take advantage of the SVDA distribtor (which is not a bad idea) you must limit the venturisize to 28 mm. Larger than that, and the vacum is no longer useable. On the other hand, a 28 mm venturi will support at least 77 hp. So its a trade.

T

[Zach Gomulka]

Piston cooling with oil squirters can be done with Porsche 964 parts (for example, Mittelmotor's part 1,1111B). They are simply drilled through main bearing saddles so that they operate on the main oil line. They have internal 2 bar valve so they won't affect your idle oil pressure. Quite easy to do. They'll add a lot of oil temperature so you should at least have doghouse cooler (or a bigger Type4 cooler fitted in doghouse) or some sort of external added cooler.

The drill needed is a normal 6,x mm (can't remember the exact size just now!), and drilling is possible in a normal bench drill with tiltable table.

Some of the best info about this modification I've read. Thanks.

911 parts is an option. I was referring to the more simple, but quite efficient 356 style, where the rods are notched 4 places on each side to direct excessive oil to the pistons and cylinders.

Is there a photo of this somewhere?

[Torben Alstrup]

Ohh, BTW. DO NOT install a type 4 cooler into a type 1 shroud. I know what has been said by who etc before. It still doesnt work well. Bottom line is that there is no gain unless the engine spins higher than approx 3300 rpm. Below it actually cools worse than stock, above between 2 & 5% better than stock. The reason is that the amount of air led to the cooler is so metered that the extra 2 rows of surface does very little good because the air is so saturated that it will take very little or no extra heat eventhough the airspeed is slowed down and the surface increased.
It is much better to have the best cooling (stock) tin and if the shroud does not have it already, add a venturi ring to the air intake. That alone will give you a 4% increase in cooling air/capacity.

I´m no expert in driving ACVW in super hot ambient, but I know what my customers need when they take their busses etc south of the Alps in the Summertime, fully loaded so to speak. For instance my 115 - 120 hp 1955 bus engine usually gets an extra 13 row aluminum oil cooler, which we typically istall beside the transmission. Then the engine is almost impossible to overheat in spanish or Italian summer. Haulin´a trailer can put it on the limit of detonation when you REALLY need it to pull at low to mid rpms through the mountains.

T

[modnrod]

LOTS and LOTS of really good info here, thanks everyone!
I know about the slotted rods trick, but I will need to check the dimensions of the slots, that I don't know. Is it a common size generally, or optimised depending on your oil pump (for pressure and volume) and the size of the stroke/bore?
The oil squirters etc, excellent stuff.
I have used T4 oil coolers in the doghouse before, but I cruise at 3500-3800 in the heat to keep the fan speed up, and to be honest I didn't notice much difference really. When it's cooler I prefer cruising revs around 3250.
I like the idea of a venturi ring, I have used ducted air aimed at the cooler inlet, that helps a bit, and the mister nozzles. I have also tried running engine oil through through tubes under the centrebranch, that works almost as well as a very small cooler.
But the best is just a well-sealed Doghouse and an extra cooler as Torben said, all the other things will help, but in diminishing amounts.

Moving the LSA to 111* but then advancing 4* was to get the IVC where I wanted to suit the restricted intake and DCR/comp ratio, but then the looser LSA would allow me to extend the total duration without affecting overlap and idle quality with the Solex and it's vacuum needs.
At least, that was the idea! 
I have to be careful where I live with fuel octane, as although 91Octane is available everywhere, the 96 and 98 is not, and at some pumps out here it isn't used regularly, so fuel quality can sometimes be an issue. I have seen this a lot with my bike (modified Vmax).

[modnrod]

wow, you are heading a bit in my way,

NOS singleport heads 35x32 valves

92 mm thickwall cylinders

Web 110/119 split duration cam with matching Web liftersI´m still not sure on the cam can somebody chime in?

I decided to go with Kadrons from KaddieShack

Torben's right, that cam does have a big duration split, great if you plan on racing and revving a 1600 in a lightweight stripped off-roader, but for a street 1835 SP a better cam could be found probably to suit your application. Possibly a Web 218 would work a bit better, or maybe a Web 118, but really, if you have the cam already there and waiting, the $200 spent on a more "ideal" cam might be better spent on the important stuff..........like fluffy dice, cool accessories, antenna ball, etc! 

Half the reason I joined this forum is due to the people like yourself and Wout building similar engines, and also not much interest among friends locally!
I think due to the language barrier us Aussies are probably influenced more by the US than Europe generally, but I prefer stock-looking with a kick, so here I am!

[181]

Piston cooling with oil squirters can be done with Porsche 964 parts (for example, Mittelmotor's part 1,1111B). They are simply drilled through main bearing saddles so that they operate on the main oil line. They have internal 2 bar valve so they won't affect your idle oil pressure. Quite easy to do. They'll add a lot of oil temperature so you should at least have doghouse cooler (or a bigger Type4 cooler fitted in doghouse) or some sort of external added cooler.

The drill needed is a normal 6,x mm (can't remember the exact size just now!), and drilling is possible in a normal bench drill with tiltable table.

Some of the best info about this modification I've read. Thanks.

911 parts is an option. I was referring to the more simple, but quite efficient 356 style, where the rods are notched 4 places on each side to direct excessive oil to the pistons and cylinders.

Is there a photo of this somewhere?

check this link out - notching old Porsche rods: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/7wuNuuEoN7Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/7wuNuuEoN7Y</a>

then Pauter Machine approach:



There´s also a VW factory bulletin recommending to to this mod on a Type 4 connecting rods with dimension of the notches but I can´t find it online.

I believe that the side clearance of the rods on the crank is important. When too loose, I wouldn´t do the notches.

I have this mod on my 2276 type 1 with no negative effects on oil presuure (30mm blueprinted Schadek)

[Jon]

Piston cooling with oil squirters can be done with Porsche 964 parts (for example, Mittelmotor's part 1,1111B). They are simply drilled through main bearing saddles so that they operate on the main oil line. They have internal 2 bar valve so they won't affect your idle oil pressure. Quite easy to do. They'll add a lot of oil temperature so you should at least have doghouse cooler (or a bigger Type4 cooler fitted in doghouse) or some sort of external added cooler.

I have been wanting to install some of these, but this thing about getting a higher oil temerature, does anyone know how this happens?
And much more importantly, does any part of the engine get cooler as a result? (I'm guessing the pistons)

[Torben Alstrup]

Valid question JHU.
You are correct. The pistons are the parts that benefits the most from oil squirters. On a N/A engine I do not know how much, but according to several turbo engine manufacturers with both gasoline and high power diesel engines a common number is 15-20 degree´s reduction in piston temperature. So in a N/A engine I would expect about ½ of that, unless we are talking all out racing. But, the cooling being the most important, there is also a second benefit. That is that this mod helps keeping the cylinder walls wet at all times. That also aids in reducing the risk of scuffing when things get busy.

The  911 rod notching shows the idea. 356 & later the 2 liter type 4 bulletin recommends the notching in a 11 and 13 o´clock position. I do it like that on the one side of the rods. Then on the other side I tighten the angle a bit to about 1115 and 1245. That way I am diverting the the areas more that will recieve a spray. (At least that´s my intention)
T

[andy198712]

Piston cooling with oil squirters can be done with Porsche 964 parts (for example, Mittelmotor's part 1,1111B). They are simply drilled through main bearing saddles so that they operate on the main oil line. They have internal 2 bar valve so they won't affect your idle oil pressure. Quite easy to do. They'll add a lot of oil temperature so you should at least have doghouse cooler (or a bigger Type4 cooler fitted in doghouse) or some sort of external added cooler.

I have been wanting to install some of these, but this thing about getting a higher oil temerature, does anyone know how this happens?
And much more importantly, does any part of the engine get cooler as a result? (I'm guessing the pistons)

as the oil is splashed at the pistons, it is heated, with squirters more oil is hitting the pistons, thus more oil is heated as a result, thus higher oil temps thats my take on it anyway