Think i've found a beehive that fits!

[andy198712]

Well,

for some reason i have it in my head that i will be fitting beehive springs to my engine build....is it needed for me.... most likely not, do i like to be different and try new things, think out side the box.... yes 

so after searching for hours and getting my head in all sorts of states trying to understand those spring tables.... i have, i think, found a spring for me!

so using stock length valves and my dual spring cut heads. the spring that fits in those is made by PAC springs (i havnt checked the price yet which could burst my bubble!)

PAC - 1523
lower OD 1.105
         ID 0.742

installed height is 1.500in and pressure at that is 85lbs (guessing its pounds)
MAX recommended lift is 0.550 which suits my 86B with 1.4's perfectly (0.540 lift)
pressure at max lift is 263lbs
Max coil bind 0.880

So...kinda low pressure i know BUT.... dual spring retainer(chromoly) weight is 21g without locks
the chromoly beehive retainer also from PSI weighs 7.7g (Ti is 5.3)

My lifters will weigh 56g
and i'll be using aluminium pushrods.

So my valve train will be nice and light weight!

so i have 0.010 left before i reach max lift, plus 0.006 for valve lash (am i right in adding that?) which leaves me enough to have a 0.015 valve seat to protect the head and locate the spring i think? should also up my pressure i tad

These are my findings and i hope they help someone else and save them all the time and looking around i've done.

Also any input would be gratefully received if i have something wrong.... i'm off to find prices now 

Cheers

Andy

[andy198712]

so from PAC the chromo retainers are $4.07 EA and Ti $15.25 EA

the springs are $18.06 but seem to only be available in sets of 16 from PAC but have seen them on there own for $18.99 from Jegs with a quick search.


so thats $184.48......


compare to say a set of VW650's @ $100 then the retainers at $67.95 for Ti and i'm not far off.... but will have a lighter valve train and hopefuly less frictional loss and longer life...? or for me the price of doing it and seeing what its like on the other side 

[richie]

Is there a valve keeper/lock that will fit VW valves and the PAC retainers? or will it need custom valves? and you are going to use Ti valves right?


cheers richie

[andy198712]

Is there a valve keeper/lock that will fit VW valves and the PAC retainers? or will it need custom valves? and you are going to use Ti valves right?


cheers richie

i'm going to see if my single groove CB ones fit first and they are 7 degrees as are the retainers for the beehives.

i'm using stainless, 40x35 .......

i'm just wondering if that seat pressure is going to be too low or not? its an NA engine.... short of Ti valves its a light vavle train... if i'm honeslt i thought because it had OK pressure at full lift it was ok ...?

[andy198712]

seems water boxer duals use 100 on the seat and 180 on the nose so i'm not too far short of that.... hmmmmmm  

and i think stock is 70 on T1...... i guess the seat pressure is the one that tries to stop the valve bouncing off the seat right?

[andy198712]

this settles me a bit....

[ibg]

Andy, I suggest you measure the lift of your cam and rockers, my 86B with Berg 1.4's lifted .575, and you probably should have at least  60 thou before coil bind. Of the commonly available duals and beehives only the CB650 had a good combination of pressure and lift. If the PSI works it will be very interesting. One other thought is pauter do a 1.3 rocker?

[andy198712]

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_1011_what_you_need_to_know_about_valvesprings/viewall.html

ment to add that to my above post

[andy198712]

Andy, I suggest you measure the lift of your cam and rockers, my 86B with Berg 1.4's lifted .575, and you probably should have at least  60 thou before coil bind. Of the commonly available duals and beehives only the CB650 had a good combination of pressure and lift. If the PSI works it will be very interesting. One other thought is pauter do a 1.3 rocker?

hmmmmm i looked into it and have had mixed result then.... your right i do need to measure it idealy...

CoilBindMax (inches)    0.880
LiftMax (inches)    0.550

so looking at that, if it lifts .575  that gives me 45 thou which like you say isnt 60 thou but may be ok with the beehives as that article gets at.... it may not and i wont know till something breaks! 

[modnrod]

Gday.
I think I may have a beehive spring option for a T1 also. I haven't tried them out yet, or fitted them, but the sizing looks OK (I think?), pressures look good for a mild/mid cam range too, especially if it has a lightened valvetrain. Still haven't got as far as finding retainers/collets yet, but I don't think it would be hard to set something up.
Anyway......

Comp Cams Part Number 26113:
installed ht of 1.50" gives seat pressure of 106lbs.
pressure at 0.500" lift gives nose pressure of 201lbs.
Safe lift to 0.550" (0.060" to coil bind).
OD and ID look like they will fit fine in the standard pockets.

A heavier beehive option might be these......

Comp Cams part number 26125:
installed ht 1.55" = 143lbs.
lift @ 0.500" = 272lbs.
Don't have notes on safe lift range.

Hope it helps someone, I want to use Comp 26113 for my next street heads.
Just need retainers/collets info (hint, hint!)

[andy198712]

Andy, I suggest you measure the lift of your cam and rockers, my 86B with Berg 1.4's lifted .575, and you probably should have at least  60 thou before coil bind. Of the commonly available duals and beehives only the CB650 had a good combination of pressure and lift. If the PSI works it will be very interesting. One other thought is pauter do a 1.3 rocker?

http://www.vwspeedshop.com/camchart.htm

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-1-Camshaft-Grind-86B-1-4-or-1-5-p/00-102.htm

i'm confused!

[andy198712]

Gday.
I think I may have a beehive spring option for a T1 also. I haven't tried them out yet, or fitted them, but the sizing looks OK (I think?), pressures look good for a mild/mid cam range too, especially if it has a lightened valvetrain. Still haven't got as far as finding retainers/collets yet, but I don't think it would be hard to set something up.
Anyway......

Comp Cams Part Number 26113:
installed ht of 1.50" gives seat pressure of 106lbs.
pressure at 0.500" lift gives nose pressure of 201lbs.
Safe lift to 0.550" (0.060" to coil bind).
OD and ID look like they will fit fine in the standard pockets.

A heavier beehive option might be these......

Comp Cams part number 26125:
installed ht 1.55" = 143lbs.
lift @ 0.500" = 272lbs.
Don't have notes on safe lift range.

Hope it helps someone, I want to use Comp 26113 for my next street heads.
Just need retainers/collets info (hint, hint!)

hint hint  
nice research, i guess i missed that one, is it enough pressure at max lift?
 i was going to use the 26125 but getting the installed hieght down to stock vw levels was tricky although i know you can get retainers that are +0.050.....? which would help greatly
they Coil bind @ .902.....

guess i have more looking to do!!

[modnrod]

nice research, i guess i missed that one, is it enough pressure at max lift?
 i was going to use the 26125 but getting the installed hieght down to stock vw levels was tricky although i know you can get retainers that are +0.050.....? which would help greatly
they Coil bind @ .902.....

guess i have more looking to do!!

I was going to use the 26113 with low-lift on the ramp but higher rockers, and light lifters/pushrods. That spring pressure would have been heaps for me, coz I only really want to spin it up to around 6000, and since the heavy stuff (lifters/rods) follows a slow ramp on the nose, and all the sharp action is at the end of the rocker, the pressure should be more than enough to keep track of it.

[TexasTom]

I'm running Comp 26125s on a current daily driver build ... very similar spring pressures when I compared to an NOS Berg dual spring, just a bit less.
Less is machined from guide boss to fit and Ti retainers I chose are 8g.

TxT

[viNce]

Will also use comp 26125 vith CB longer racemaster valves. Use #762 Ti retainers which are 5 grams.

https://picasaweb.google.com/116417943556056985644/20120420Parts2074ccV2?authuser=0&feat=directlink

[andy198712]

nice research, i guess i missed that one, is it enough pressure at max lift?
 i was going to use the 26125 but getting the installed hieght down to stock vw levels was tricky although i know you can get retainers that are +0.050.....? which would help greatly
they Coil bind @ .902.....

guess i have more looking to do!!

I was going to use the 26113 with low-lift on the ramp but higher rockers, and light lifters/pushrods. That spring pressure would have been heaps for me, coz I only really want to spin it up to around 6000, and since the heavy stuff (lifters/rods) follows a slow ramp on the nose, and all the sharp action is at the end of the rocker, the pressure should be more than enough to keep track of it.

Less is more to a point..... I'm just unsure of where that point is

[andy198712]

nice research, i guess i missed that one, is it enough pressure at max lift?
 i was going to use the 26125 but getting the installed hieght down to stock vw levels was tricky although i know you can get retainers that are +0.050.....? which would help greatly
they Coil bind @ .902.....

guess i have more looking to do!!

I was going to use the 26113 with low-lift on the ramp but higher rockers, and light lifters/pushrods. That spring pressure would have been heaps for me, coz I only really want to spin it up to around 6000, and since the heavy stuff (lifters/rods) follows a slow ramp on the nose, and all the sharp action is at the end of the rocker, the pressure should be more than enough to keep track of it.

What cam are you planning bud?

[andy198712]

I'm running Comp 26125s on a current daily driver build ... very similar spring pressures when I compared to an NOS Berg dual spring, just a bit less.
Less is machined from guide boss to fit and Ti retainers I chose are 8g.

TxT

Hi TxT,
Are you running yours with standard length valves with those and a lower installed height?
Wasn't it you doing that high rpm burnout a while back on a thread!!

[modnrod]

Aaah.
Ahem.

I'm thinking 230-240* @ .050", .420" exh lift, .470" int lift. Small motor spinning to under 6000.

Unless my daughter gets too damn loud about her 6.0L Chevy, then it's game on, the motor will be over 2L and I'll get the Busa throttles out, and she's toast!  
Bloody kids think they know everything.......

[andy198712]

Aaah.
Ahem.

I'm thinking 230-240* @ .050", .420" exh lift, .470" int lift. Small motor spinning to under 6000.

Unless my daughter gets too damn loud about her 6.0L Chevy, then it's game on, the motor will be over 2L and I'll get the Busa throttles out, and she's toast!  
Bloody kids think they know everything.......

Peer pressure!!!

[TexasTom]

I'm running Comp 26125s on a current daily driver build ... very similar spring pressures when I compared to an NOS Berg dual spring, just a bit less.
Less is machined from guide boss to fit and Ti retainers I chose are 8g.

TxT

Hi TxT,
Are you running yours with standard length valves with those and a lower installed height?
Wasn't it you doing that high rpm burnout a while back on a thread!!

Andy,
Yes, this engine has standard valves. Trying some different stuff ... we'll see.
And Yes, blue '69 with bra mounted ... 7+k rpm 2nd gear burnout ... still running great!
I'm digging the beehives ...
TxT

[andy198712]

I'm running Comp 26125s on a current daily driver build ... very similar spring pressures when I compared to an NOS Berg dual spring, just a bit less.
Less is machined from guide boss to fit and Ti retainers I chose are 8g.

TxT

Hi TxT,
Are you running yours with standard length valves with those and a lower installed height?
Wasn't it you doing that high rpm burnout a while back on a thread!!

Andy,
Yes, this engine has standard valves. Trying some different stuff ... we'll see.
And Yes, blue '69 with bra mounted ... 7+k rpm 2nd gear burnout ... still running great!
I'm digging the beehives ...
TxT

cool! would you say 86lbs would be ok for seat pressure or no?

failing that i'll try the 26125's i think....

fyi i asked comp cams about clearance and the advised .040-.060 safety margin.....

[TexasTom]

What is your cam of choice and valvetrain?

[andy198712]

86b and bugpack forged 1.4's

Also toying with ti locking nuts on the rockers as it happens.

[TexasTom]

Yep ... No Way I'd go with 86 lbs seat pressure, except maybe for break in only! LOL

I'd definitely go with a higher pressure and rate of spring.

TxT

[andy198712]

Yep ... No Way I'd go with 86 lbs seat pressure, except maybe for break in only! LOL

I'd definitely go with a higher pressure and rate of spring.

TxT

Got ya! Thanks

[viNce]

I've found pics where I weighted my valve train parts,

CB RaceMaster 42 valve, it since has lost 2 grams with the 30° back cut done after pic was taken.



CB RM 38 valve, 2 grams lost since pic like the intake one



Comp CAM 26125 spring



CC #619 lash cap



CC #628 locks



CC #762 ti retainer



Last one is a Berg VW chromo retainer



With my 56 grams Thorsten Pieper lifters and Smith Brother Alu pushrods (not weighted yet as I'll order them when my valve train geo will be done) those single 26125 springs will be more than enough to handle my FK44 cam, should be good for the 86b too.

[Donny B.]

I believe that Joel Mohr has been using beehive springs for some time now.  He is on this forum.  We need to get him to chime in on this subject.

[andy198712]

cheers for the weights, wondering if Ti adjuster nuts are worth the expense as there quite light anyway.....

Paging Joel Mohr....... 

[Airspeed]

I ran the same beehives as Joel Mohr used (from R/D Spring, sort of custom made with the optional  2.7 gramm Ti retainers) in 2007 with SS 46/40mm, long (type 4) valves (also 93-94 gramm) on a 2,7 ltr N/A engine.
Totally set-up for very light valve train with Schubeck lifters and alu push rods, original 1,3 rockers and just 0.53" lift @ 260-ish.
Seat pressure was also very low (43 kg iirc) but proved no problem at all, but the small cam only revved to about 6,5-6,8K.

Most people still have their reference around traditional spring rates and scare away from running lower.
You can think you're 'thinking outside the box' as much as you want, but if you keep the same seat pressure range as you did with regular duals, your not really stepping out of that box at all really...

 
Walter