Projekt Kompressor

[Mike Lawless]

With the closing of the US based CLF, our build thread for our turbo project disappeared as well. Since we like to share our trials and tribulations, our disappointments and out triumphs, I've "kompressed" the entire build at the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~mlawless29/turbo.html

One of the final hurdles was accomplished over the weekend, and that was dealing with the clutch. I was trying to save time and money since I was way over budget on the rest of the build. I had been running a "J&G" style clutch for the last several years. The "Light" hat was just enough clutch for the normally aspirated set-up we had. It seemed to be a simple matter to switch to the heavy hat. Component flex and an improper initial set-up caused it to not release, and it took many hours of trial and error to finally get it working. I ended up with a hydraulic release bearing that fits inside the bellhousing. At least it fits now! Making it all fit and work was no easy task. But with help from my son Mark, we got working. It took the entire weekend, and we had the motor in and out it seems a dozen times.

Our completion target is the Bakersfield March Meet. In truth, a Test n Tune event a couple weeks before. With a few loose ends to wrap up, it looks promising. But then, I haven't even tried to fire it yet!

[Zach Gomulka]

Mike, it is really amazing how you've evolved this machine over the years!

[BeetleBug]

Thanks for posting Mike. I have followed the build on the Ultimate forum and I wish you good luck with the first start and the coming race weekend.

Best rgs
BB

[modnrod]

Gday Mike.
Thanks very much for the link to your build-up. I'm glad you enjoy sharing it with others, because I enjoy reading all about it! I will get into it tonight. 
I'm especially looking forward to reading about the methanol parts and basic tune for stacks, that's becoming a lost art almost nowadays.
Thanks again for sharing.

[Mike Lawless]

Thanks guys
Modnrod, I had sold my entire Hilborn NA stack injection to Martin "Boom Boom" for his NSU project, and it is set up to run methanol. We've been running it for five years on the Blue Car, and I'll tell you, I'll never go back to gasoline. I think it's only uncertainty that keeps others from using it. If there is one thing that convinced me, it was our 2009 win at the Bakersfield March Meet. Seven rounds of racing, with the last four rounds only minutes apart. Barely enough time to even put fuel in the car. No time to cool it down. Had we been on gasoline, I would have had to withdraw, or burn the motor down.

So, there was no consideration of using anything other than methanol and mechanical injection for our turbo combination. I probably could have gotten by with a less complex system, but by doing it the way we did, there's room to grow without having to redo the entire fuel system.

I'm very happy to be a part of this community. The big attraction this message board has is that the members, particularly those outside the US, exhibit "Outside the Box" approaches to problem solving. Very refreshing.

[richie]

Hi Mike

good to see you adding the build here,particularly now the CLF has gone,one thing I have been wondering about is the need for the extra fuel tank at the back,did you need to do this to aid starting? or did it loose fuel pressure on a pass?
I have only a front mounted tank and a mechanical pump on the newer cabrio and havent had any issues as long as I put enough fuel in the tank

I have been reading a book on methanol tuning by Bob Szabo and there is alot of info on mechanical injection in there,and he covers fuel cell location etc and states that a rear engined car with a front mounted tank shouldn't have any issues getting fuel to the engine as the fuel is naturally forced toward the engine on a pass, my concern was maybe you had another problem[fuel line to small,to many turns in fuel line etc,restrictive fliter] and it would show itself again now the demand on the fuel system will be greater and have the potential to damage the engine.

Maybe I am a million miles off,wouldnt be the 1st time    but spent alot of time on the road recently with nothing to occupy my mind,we all know how dangerous that can be

cheers Richie

[Mike Lawless]

Richie, you are right on target.

When I first set the mechanical system up, I looked at front engine dragsters. Most of those had a fuel cell mounted far forward of the engine. So, I figured I could get away with having my cell up front. I mounted it as high as possible, so it would be above the fuel pump and I used a 5/8" line back to the pump. Unfortunately, I had forgotten the rules of fluid dynamics that I learned years ago when I worked with industrial hydraulic systems. I was getting pump cavitation in the top half of the run, and the car would "nose over" and lean out. Fortunately, I knew form experience what was happening, and always aborted the run, limiting damage to burnt spark plugs only.

I believe that it was due to the number of 90° fittings it took to get that fuel line snaked through a stock bodied car. Had the line been bigger with fewer bends, I'm certain it would have worked. Also a contributing factor that you won't see with a regulated return as in an EFI system, is that with mechanical injection, the feed line has to keep up with the total output capacity of the pump. The pump will output at full capacity at all times.

Having the pump mounted above the motor was also a potential factor. I've seen several VWs with a fuel pump driven off the end of the oil pump run without issues from a front mounted fuel cell.

Anyway, I have a one gallon "holding cell" above the transaxle that the pump draws from. The feed line was only a few inches long. Fuel from the front cell is pumped to it by an electric fuel pump and with a return line in place, once full, it simply returns back to the front cell. It's worked flawlessly for several years. The one gallon cell is big enough to run an entire pass should the electric circulation pump not keep up for any reason.

One of these days, if I have some ambition and nothing better to do, I may try to do away with the rear holding cell. Since my pump is driven off the oil pump and is low in the car, it may work. But you can bet your ass I'd have at least a one inch line from front to back! That would probably hold at least a gallon all by itself.
Right out of the Smokey Yunick Nascar playbook. The rules say the tank can only hold "X" amount of fuel.....the rules don't say nothing about how much fuel line is allowed

[richie]

Interesting,I only have 2 fittings from tank to pump,thats it,but the exit from the tank is not the ideal placement as the steering rack is in the way,the pump is mounted up high on top of the case and belt driven.So you are saying that the mechanical injection pump needs a better feed that the mechanical EFI pump? I would have thought it was the other way round as the efi pump has to be supplied with more fuel as it sends the extra back in the loop via the regulator,surely it is also always going to need 100% on the feed side at decent rpm?

My feed line is quite large,it does amaze me how long it runs on the fuel in the line only after each time I drained the tank so you have a good point there

cheers Richie   

[Mike Lawless]

So you are saying that the mechanical injection pump needs a better feed that the mechanical EFI pump? I would have thought it was the other way round as the efi pump has to be supplied with more fuel as it sends the extra back in the loop via the regulator,surely it is also always going to need 100% on the feed side at decent rpm?

cheers Richie  

They both need adequate supply to the suction side, and they both return unused fuel back to the fuel cell, but in different ways.  I believe it's a bit more critical on an MFI system
On EFI, (Constant pressure, variable duty cycle on the nozzle) the regulator will only bypass fuel past a certain pressure. It will hold pressure in the nozzle feed lines before it bypasses. If fuel pump output drops a little, it will reduce the amount of fuel bypassed to keep the pressure stable. At least as long as there is adequate fuel supply to the injector side. But I reckon on a set-up such as yours with a mechanical pump, the pressure varies with rpm like an MFI system does. But you set your nozzle nozzle duty cycle for that rpm/pressure.
 
On MFI, (Variable pressure, Constant flow nozzles) fuel gets bypassed regardless of pressure. You have one fixed size orifice for each cylinder and a fixed size bypass. What holds system pressure is "X" amount of fuel flowing through five fixed sized orifices (in a one nozzle per cylinder configuration). If the pump loses even a small amount of pressure, the nozzles won't flow as much, causing a lean condition. In that regard, MFI is completely dependent on fuel pump output.

Another example is that should the pump lose efficiency over time due to wear, the bypass jet needs to be adjusted to maintain system pressure. With an EFI regulator, it will still maintain the pressure it was set for, until pump output drops below what the motor needs

[richie]

That makes sense, I dont think I want to learn to much about MFI though,I might be tempted to try it


cheers Richie

[Mike Lawless]

With the lounge being down over the weekend, I really had no other choice than to get some work done. Thanks to the forum administrators for all you do!

Anyway, it's alive. The video is in quicktime, so it needs a quicktime player. Since the video, I got the idle cleaned up, but there's a still a few loose ends to wrap up. (leaky valve cover, a few bits that still need to be put on, etc.)

All things considered, it's good that my fittings welded onto the fuel cell didn't leak, in fact no fuel system leaks at all. Pretty amazing considering the plumber's nightmare this thing has become.

http://lawlessdesigns.com/It'sAlive.MOV
 The primary design criteria has been met. The decklid shuts. There's no stinger stickin' out the back. If it weren't for the numbers and other decals on the windows, it would look like a street car.

[JamieL]

Awesome job Mike - there's something right and very purposeful about the sound of a blown flat-4 on alcohol that really does it for me:)
Good luck with the rest of this project; I really forward to future updates - fingers crossed for Bakersfield... 

[Cornpanzer]

Hmmmmm...very interesting. 

Be safe buddy

[Mike Lawless]

Awesome job Mike - there's something right and very purposeful about the sound of a blown flat-4 on alcohol that really does it for me:)
Good luck with the rest of this project; I really forward to future updates - fingers crossed for Bakersfield... 

Thanks Jamie!

Looks like I have done just about everything that needs doing. Now it's just a matter of running it at the track!

Hopefully, I'll have a positive report to post shortly after.

If anyone will be at the Bakersfield March Meet, come look us up!

[Fiatdude]

Wish you had time to put it on a dyno Mike -- -- Went years without getting on one, Now that I've done it - firm believer -- beats the hell out of setting in the lanes waiting to make a pass

[Mike Lawless]

Not so easy to do up here Harold. I would have liked to have gotten it ballparked on a dyno, but there just isn't any within close proximity. It's as difficult to get the thing to a dyno as it is taking it to the track

Besides, I love being at the track. Waiting in the lanes is not a big deal. Not to mention that every pass is a learning experience. I think I can learn enough in a few passes to get it fairly close.

[Brian Silva]

Hey there Mike, long time no see! Glad to see the car progressing with non traditional methods for a vw! Can't wait to see and hear that thing in action!

[richie]

Mike

good to hear that you are making progress,heard you ran your 1st 10 in it yesterday,hope today goes even better


cheers Richie

[Fiatdude]

I heard 2 more 10's today and drove onto the the trailer

[Mike Lawless]

Here's a status report from our weekend Test n Tune. First thing to keep in mind is that I had changed the main jet from the as-supplied 130 to a 165 (bigger main jet = leaner) to get it to "seemingly" run better last weekend. And now, the report....

Things didn't start well. Got unloaded and fired up without any trouble, but it just didn't seem "right". Decided to go tech it and get out on the track to see where we were and go from there.

But then the damn thing wouldn't fire back up after going through tech. I got a tow back to our pit by one of the famoso crew, but not before Track owner John Bowser asked me

"What the hell was wrong with the damn thing?" I said, "hell I don't know. It ran when I got here."

It fired right back up when we got back to our pit..

We finally got up for the first run, and the thing wouldn't run against the two step. Give it full throttle on the step, and it would just gasp and die out. It wouldn't even turn the tires over in the water box. So, back to our pit we went. Now, I did have a leaner setting in it than when I got the system, and after some detective work, I decided to return it baseline, as it was when delivered. It then responded by running up against the two step. Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

The next attempt was better, actually being able to do a burnout. Staged, dumped clutch and it falls on its face and dies. I start it back up and just drive down the track. I used the run to at least roll into the throttle to get some info. Still acting lean, popping and missing when I rolled into the throttle.

Back at the pits, I add more fuel, going to a 110 main jet, and swapping the .057" air bleed jet in the boost sensor (regulates fuel pressure under boost, smaller jet= higher fuel pressure, or richer fuel mixture) for a .049. Now it's starting to sound good and running hard up against the limiter. The next run, it does a fair burnout, I staged, dumped clutch and it bogs bad, but recovers and runs hard through second and third, but noses over in high. At about 1000 feet, I just clutch it and coast through so we don't burn it up.  I was very surprised to see 11.58@ 121mph. As crappy as the run was, I was expecting a 13 second time slip. Solid progress!

Back at the pits, we find some bolts had vibrated loose. Got those cinched down and added more fuel, changing to a .100 main. By this time, we had added a bunch as compared to the baseline setting. I just figured I'd keep adding till it stopped improving.

While waiting in the lanes, I decided to go ahead and bump the main to a .090". What the hell.

Run four was a big surprise. Burnout was good, it launched a big power wheelie, riding the wheelie bars out past the 60 foot beams, and pulled really hard through all the gears!

10.56@ 132.96

Yeah, I was happy with that, especially considering I only had a seven pound spring in the waste gate. Up till this point, I had a 7000 rpm chip in the two step

Today (Sunday) we made two runs. Two solid runs. Each with only a single change. On the first, I lowered the launch RPM from 7000 down to 6400. It bogged just a little on the starting line and went thru at 10.74 @ 133.55.

On the second run, the launch RPM was set to 6700, and no other changes. Result was 10.69 @ 130.37. This one was a bit squirrely maybe because I went right after junior dragsters. I got out of the groove a bit, taking the "Scenic Route." Both of the Sunday runs were with the 7lb spring in the waste gate.

We decided to call it a day. We got what we came for, and for the time being, it seems to like the higher launch RPM. I'm sure it's pretty fat now. I don't think the heads even got to 150°.

I need to lower the fuel pressure at idle a little more to clean that up.

We hope to have it changed around a little for our next outing by installing the TurboSmart eBoost. I'll use it's boost switch to launch with the boost a little lower, and then at a higher setting for the top three gears.

At least it sounds good in theory! And oh yeah, set my wheelie bars a little lower.

Other that the first couple of attempted runs just getting the thing to run, no major hick-ups, and we brought it home in one piece! It runs the index number we were shooting for at ridiculously low boost, and after doing some refining, we may step it up a bit to see what she's got.

Overall, the procedure for the weekend was "More Fuel. Give it more till it stops improving." But we ended up stopping with the .090" jet. I may leave it alone for now.

[Mike Lawless]

Here' a quick time video Cindy took with her iPhone, This is Saturday's 10.56 run
http://lawlessdesigns.com/wkratFamoso223.MOV

[modnrod]

Mid-10s at only 1/2Bar.........
Bloody hell! It works OK then! 

[richie]

I may leave it alone for now.

    


Well done Mike,

very good for a 1st time out with so many changes, I actually think your launch rpm may still be a little low,it would wheelie less if it was a little higher and it slipped the clutch more,or a little more launch boost would achieve the same thing, how were the 60fts?

cheers Richie

[Mike Lawless]

I'm open to try that Richie, and it makes sense.

The 60s were not great. In fact not much better than it used to be. Of course the best 60 was on the pass with the highest launch rpm. That one was 1.49. The short time with the launch at 6400 was 1.59, and at 6700 it was 1.52.

Another thing....
I really wasn't trying to "hit" the tree. However, with as long as I've been doing this, the my personal reaction has been virtually automatic. Historically, I haven't fallen off that much after a winter lay-off.

My best two RTs were .112 and .124, both on a .4 pro tree. So, that bugs me a bit. I think I may have a bit too much flow resistance in my clutch management. Engagement off the line seemed pretty soft for being a "heavy" clutch. So, I'll probably allow a little quicker release next time out. And possibly, after fixing a few glitches, I can more tightly focus on the tree. Maybe I'm just over-thinking that.

At the eighth mile, I have about a full second to shave off if I'm ever going to run it in Outlaw 8.5 at West Coast Hot Rod events. Those guys don't play nice at all. But it would be fun to give it a shot one day!

Thanks guys!

[stretch]

Congrats Mike.  What was the best time the car ran with the old setup?

Just a thought regarding the 60' times, if the car carried the wheels past the 60' timing beams then maybe it gave you the 60' time for the rear wheels?

[Mike Lawless]

Thanks Stretch. You are probably right about tripping the beam with the back wheels. I would prefer that it didn't do that, so we'll see what we can do to bring back down a little closer to earth

The best times with the car in NA trim were 11.23 at 121 with CBs Strip Dominator heads, and 11.38 @ 118 with the Comp Eliminators like it has now.

I have a few things to do before the March Meet. Some may calm it down, others may aggravate it. it's just a matter of finding what it likes. Needless to say, it's a much different animal than it once was!

[Zach Gomulka]

Very impressive as always!

[Mike Lawless]

This shot got my attention, and this wasn't even the "BigWheelie" run!

The rear suspension is topped out from hitting the wheelie bar too hard, and the rear wheels are almost completely unloaded. There's daylight at the edges where the tire contacts the pavement.

Esto no es bueno!

here's the link

http://reflectionsof.photoreflect.com/store/Orderpage.aspx?pi=024S00LL000018&po=18&pc=215

This one too....

http://reflectionsof.photoreflect.com/store/Orderpage.aspx?pi=024S00LL000091&po=91&pc=215

[Fiatdude]

Mike ----- I'm thinking I just saw your new thumbnail picture for your posts --- neat shot -- But i think that the suggestions you've been receiving on changes are right on

[Mike Lawless]

I think I'm as ready as I'm gonna get for the March Meet. I just couldn't swing the time to install the eBoost, so that will wait for another day. Myself and others felt it would be better to use the very little time between the last TnT session to address the car's new handling issues.
I have lowered the pivot point of my rear control arms to the center hole, down from the top hole. This should indroduce a little "squat" in the arse
I have modified my wheelie bracket to put the wheels about 2" off the ground from the 8" they were previously.
I have tightened up the front shock adjustment to 12 clicks out of the 24 available. In theory, this should slow the weight transfer to minimize the "dead hook" thing......at least in theory.
I have raised the launch rpm up to 7200. 200RPM above the 10.56 pass where it worked the best. Richie suggests that this will induce a bit of clutch slip at the hit.

The other thing I have learned is that just like my previous  mechanical injection system, the nozzle lines need to be removed if the car is to sit for any length of time. Last weekend at the track, I left them hooked up, and the damn thing wouldn't start sunday morning because it was flooded. I drained the oil yesterday to find about a quart and a half of fuel in the oil.....lesson learned!  Again. I thought I could get away from having to do that because the pump is now lower than the injector nozzles. However, the fuel cell is higher. So, it dribbles.

No amount of shaking will keep it from dribbling!