Nice street engine?

[dannyboy]

been thinking about what would be a perfect engine for a fast street car no drag racing but still good and quick, 1914?  2007?  2276? i have a nos vw mexico case to start with but cant decide on size/cam/carbs   it wil be going in a full weight bug with a built box

[Jim Ratto]

94 x 78, Engle 130/K10 or Pauter R6E8, 9.0:1, high-air speed VW-based cylinder heads, dual 2bbl Weber/Dellorto 44mm-48mm (36-38mm venturi)
Does 180hp @ 6200 work for your street car?

[dannyboy]

i think i might have worded it a bit wrong i meant a nice and pleasant street motor .i have a spare 2276 that makes 185hp with fk87 wedgeports etc  but want a real nice engine that will still be nippy but nice and docile round town. i didnt want to break down the 2276 as it was a great engine but not the right engine for a nippy street car. and will be a good spare motor if my new race engine goes tits up 

[benlawrence]

depends what you want, i would go for a torquer all day, 82 x 94 1.4 ratio specific cam like an fk8. 40x35.5 heads with a mild round port job & valve job, stock vw rod cheap aa p&c's, 44's with 36mm vents peak power around 5700, around 140bhp & 150tq all day long ultra reliable, easily maintained, docile round town, will pull in 4th from 1500 all the way to the redline. an easy get in and go number that wont piss you off.

Oh and with a good enough driver  will do high 13's all day long ;-)

[dannyboy]

thats the sort of thinkg im talking about 

[Jim Ratto]

thats the sort of thinkg im talking about  

instead of 266-270' @ .050, the Web 110 or the Engle W125 (or K8) would do what you want. I suggested 78 crank because with VW length rods and stroker pistons, you'll get around .060" deck without goofiing around with longer barrels/spacers. Makes them a lot easier to set up, in terms of geometry, cooing shroud /fan housing fitment, header, engine compartment. etc. FWIW, I run 271' @ .050/ .525" @ valve and was driving the car on an almost daily basis. Runs from 2800-7000 day in and day out. Keep port size on the conservative side.  

[dannyboy]

thats the sort of thinkg im talking about  

instead of 266-270' @ .050, the Web 110 or the Engle W125 (or K8) would do what you want. I suggested 78 crank because with VW length rods and stroker pistons, you'll get around .060" deck without goofiing around with longer barrels/spacers. Makes them a lot easier to set up, in terms of geometry, cooing shroud /fan housing fitment, header, engine compartment. etc. FWIW, I run 271' @ .050/ .525" @ valve and was driving the car on an almost daily basis. Runs from 2800-7000 day in and day out. Keep port size on the conservative side.  

78 crank sounds good is there much difference with 90.5s or 94s with cooling?

[Erlend / bug66]

What are your goals with this engine?

If I where to build a street engine with some oomph, I would do it large, and "slow".

Not a big cam, 40/35 heads, 44 or 45 carbs (preferably EFI/crank).

Use good parts and get 130-150hp with alot of torque. Get it balanced good.

If you don't stress an engine (much cam, heads and carbs) it will stay with with you longer..

Nice exhaust and good muffler will make it a joy to drive far

[dannyboy]

my goal is to be able to get in drive around sit in traffic then give most of the boy racers a run for there money  im not looking for a 12 second street car 14s will do me fine
i had a 2007 with a 120 engle and 45mm dells years ago in a split panel and that drove real nice 

[hotrodsurplus]

my goal is to be able to get in drive around sit in traffic then give most of the boy racers a run for there money  im not looking for a 12 second street car 14s will do me fine

I sound like a broken record I've mentioned this engine so many times but the most fun Volkswagen engine I ever owned was a 2110 with a 110 cam, clearanced stock rods, near 9:1 static CR, 40x35.5 unwelded Shaun McCarthy heads, 44 IDFs, and a Berg 1 5/8-inch header and dual QPs. Ran it with a 4.12 box with welded stock gears and a super diff. Lived at sea level and I'm almost positive that I could've run 89-octane (R+M/2 rated) fuel.

It was in a '66 beetle. That car would shred the moment you released the clutch. You could lug it in any gear and it didn't care. I frequently started in second gear. Fox 50 Mustangs were not even close to a threat between stoplights. Ran as cool as any stocker would.

I ran it a few times at Brotherhood Raceway on Terminal Island in the early '90s. The 1/8 to 1/4 conversion said that it ran low-mid 14s and that was on aired-down 165s. I kept up with a lot of cars that were known to run low 14s on the quarter.

The only problems that combo ever gave me was plugged idle jets, a cracked crank pulley, and a fragged fan. Anyone could drive the car--it was a no-brainer.
 

[Zach Gomulka]

A 1915 will bag you low 14's, even quicker if you're not too heavy. It's the best bang for the buck you can build. 120ish cam, around 9:1, nice 40x35.5 heads, dual 44's, 1 1/2" merge. Cheap, and very easy to build.

[henk]

think this is gonna be a thread whit a lot of different personal choises.
i have a 2110 in my car wich is a street car
FK-10,IDA,... and i really like it on the street.

henk!!!

[TexasTom]

I built an engine a few years ago for a customer that, in my opinion, is a great engine for this use .... also works for tighter budgets.
74X94, stock length rods, Engle 120, 9.0:1, 40X35 heads with mild (non-welded) ports. I used 40IDFs but 44s would do as well. Even kept the heater boxes as this was important to the customer, but were 1 1/2".
The result is a nice, snappy engine with very good power and can go all day in town or on the highway without issues.
I put a 5400 rev-limiting rotor on it with the valvetrain in mind LOL


TxT

[Chris bugster]

I.m trying to do the same thing for me and my heavy 1303. It's a
78x94
44x37 wedgeport heads
fk45 w 1.4 rockers
10.5 squeeze
1 3/4 exhaust
48mm throttle bodies, computer, blah, blah
This should be the most torquey engine I have- the others are all fk89-98 with Autocraft, Angleflow, 15:1 + 58 IDAs

[Bendik]

thats the sort of thinkg im talking about  

instead of 266-270' @ .050, the Web 110 or the Engle W125 (or K8) would do what you want. I suggested 78 crank because with VW length rods and stroker pistons, you'll get around .060" deck without goofiing around with longer barrels/spacers. Makes them a lot easier to set up, in terms of geometry, cooing shroud /fan housing fitment, header, engine compartment. etc. FWIW, I run 271' @ .050/ .525" @ valve and was driving the car on an almost daily basis. Runs from 2800-7000 day in and day out. Keep port size on the conservative side.  

If I just have an empty crankcase I might as well buy a 78 crankshaft, and I like the idea of not using long barrels. Would this combo work with a 40mm Dell Orto setup or would I strangle the engine?

[Jim Ratto]

I built an engine a few years ago for a customer that, in my opinion, is a great engine for this use .... also works for tighter budgets.
74X94, stock length rods, Engle 120, 9.0:1, 40X35 heads with mild (non-welded) ports. I used 40IDFs but 44s would do as well. Even kept the heater boxes as this was important to the customer, but were 1 1/2".
The result is a nice, snappy engine with very good power and can go all day in town or on the highway without issues.
I put a 5400 rev-limiting rotor on it with the valvetrain in mind LOL


TxT

I built almost identical motor in  1990, but with Engle 125 and 44IDF. 14 sec car on radials and stock gears, full weight and as nice as anything to drive, aside from idle jets plugging.

[hotrodsurplus]

I suggested 78 crank because with VW length rods and stroker pistons, you'll get around .060" deck without goofiing around with longer barrels/spacers. Makes them a lot easier to set up, in terms of geometry, cooing shroud /fan housing fitment, header, engine compartment. etc.

Maybe things have changed since I built an engine with B pistons but in my experience using B pistons with a stroke shorter than 82 with VW or Porsche rods actually makes the engine more difficult to build. I would rather do it that way than use A pistons but here's what you are in for if you use B pistons on a 78.4 crank with stock rods.

The stock deck is ~.065". When Rimco bored my cases for bigger liners it would usually make a .010" surface cut to true the spigots. So if I built a stock-stroke engine I'd end up with ~.055" deck.

The pin-height difference between the A and B pistons is 5.6mm (at least it was when spot was a pup). A 78.4 crank pushes the piston up the hole only 4.7mm which falls short by .9mm or .035". That means if you started with a .055" deck with a stock crank and A pistons then the deck height would increase to .090" with a 78.4 crank and B pistons. So if you want an .055" or .060" deck you'd have to machine the bases of the barrels. By the way, that's a task that any machinist can do. That does not require a VW-specific machinist.

Also remember that you're going to flycut the step out of the heads. If I remember correctly that will shorten the engine another .060" on each side. So that engine would end up quite narrow--maybe narrow enough to encounter carburetor clearance problems if you use a square shroud.  

Technically that combo requires more work than A pistons and shims but it's worth it in my estimation. By the math the alternative (A piston with stock rods and 78.4) takes a .185" barrel shim. That's wide but it still remains an easy engine to build if you don't have a lathe or a local machinist.

I think 40 Dellortos would work great for a combo like that. You can get venturis as large as 36mm and if you kept the cam timing conservative I don't see why you would need more than 34s.

[Jim Ratto]

Last 4 engines I've done with 78mm, VW rods and Mahle 94B's (including my own) came out to ~0.060". My (new) case is decked @ cylinder spigots, by Ray Schubert

[richie]

My input,when I was living in colorado in the winters I had a stock 67,the stock 1500 was on its last legs and just about made it back to Socal one trip,with what I had in parts already lying around and help from Dave[and his parts stash] & Bruce we put together a 76x94,revmaster crank,stock rods,94mm B pistons and cylinders,some 044s that were hand ported a few years earlier and used to be on the cabrio,FK8,pair of 44idfs,and 1 5/8 S&S header with berg dual mufflers, after a couple of minor issues we put it in the car and I drove it straight back to colorado,1000miles one way,as high as 12,000feet over vail pass.Then drove it the next coule of years with plenty of 1000mile trips,everything else was stock on the car,it would cruise at 80 out in the middle of nowhere for hours,only stopping for gas without any issues at all,cruise up the steepest of grades,and always got me to work when everyone else was struggling to get up the snow covered roads   it was real fun around town and suprised more than a few with its stock looks,particularly with 4 of us in it,with snowboards on the roof in the outside lane on the freeway  
It to me was the perfect daily driver,if I needed that again I wouldnt change a thing

cheers Richie

[richie]

I suggested 78 crank because with VW length rods and stroker pistons, you'll get around .060" deck without goofiing around with longer barrels/spacers. Makes them a lot easier to set up, in terms of geometry, cooing shroud /fan housing fitment, header, engine compartment. etc.

Maybe things have changed since I built an engine with B pistons but in my experience using B pistons with a stroke shorter than 82 with VW or Porsche rods actually makes the engine more difficult to build. I would rather do it that way than use A pistons but here's what you are in for if you use B pistons on a 78.4 crank with stock rods.

The stock deck is ~.065". When Rimco bored my cases for bigger liners it would usually make a .010" surface cut to true the spigots. So if I built a stock-stroke engine I'd end up with ~.055" deck.

The pin-height difference between the A and B pistons is 5.6mm (at least it was when spot was a pup). A 78.4 crank pushes the piston up the hole only 4.7mm which falls short by .9mm or .035". That means if you started with a .055" deck with a stock crank and A pistons then the deck height would increase to .090" with a 78.4 crank and B pistons. So if you want an .055" or .060" deck you'd have to machine the bases of the barrels. By the way, that's a task that any machinist can do. That does not require a VW-specific machinist.

Also remember that you're going to flycut the step out of the heads. If I remember correctly that will shorten the engine another .060" on each side. So that engine would end up quite narrow--maybe narrow enough to encounter carburetor clearance problems if you use a square shroud.  

Technically that combo requires more work than A pistons and shims but it's worth it in my estimation. By the math the alternative (A piston with stock rods and 78.4) takes a .185" barrel shim. That's wide but it still remains an easy engine to build if you don't have a lathe or a local machinist.

I think 40 Dellortos would work great for a combo like that. You can get venturis as large as 36mm and if you kept the cam timing conservative I don't see why you would need more than 34s.

Chris,  with 94s they deck the case so much more even with B pistons you sometimes need a small shim,that would be the difference I experience

cheers Richie

[hotrodsurplus]

Chris,  with 94s they deck the case so much more even with B pistons you sometimes need a small shim,that would be the difference I experience

cheers Richie

Aha! That does make sense--the flange on those likely overlaps the lip around the case window. I've never built a 94 engine.

[dannyboy]

right i got the motor done very pleased with the results and cant wait to fit it in the car and see how it goes
heres the dyno sheet what do you think i reckon itll be great fun  


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[dannyboy]

stuip fooking macbook how hard is it to paste pics up on these stupid things 

[glenn]

right i got the motor done very pleased with the results and cant wait to fit it in the car and see how it goes
heres the dyno sheet what do you think i reckon itll be great fun  

Fixed for you.

[dannyboy]

cheers  i miss my old pc 

[Zach Gomulka]

What specs did you settle on?

[Iryanu]

Here are my 2161cc specs:

Raised deck 3.5mm aluminium case with raised roof, solid rear wall, 6 shuffle pins
84mm forged crank
5500 chevy journal forged H beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts
Mahle 90.5 p&b (92mm super thickwall)
German std weight flywheel 8 doweled
1700lb Kennedy Pressure plate and CB centreforce disc
3.5lb steel equalizer pulley
Web 111 camshaft (276° 0.476" lift)
Bolt up rockers
Straight-cut steel CB cam gear set
CB light-weight lifters
Manton pushrods
Ported & polished heads by RNJ Motorsport 40x35.5 valves
Titanium coated valve springs
Dual 44IDF with CB linkage and manifolds
Pertronix billet distributor and Flame-Thrower coil
VW speedshop 1 5/8" stainless sidewinder exhaust and muffler
CB deep sump, GeneBerg pump cover
Full flowed with external oil filter
All bottom end rotating assembly balanced inc pp.

Grunt is there off idle, on the street you just cannot beat the driveability, in any gear you can push the pedal and the car just ups and moves.

60hp 157lb/fts @ 2000rpm
71hp 150lb/fts @ 2500rpm
81hp 142lb/fts @ 3000rpm
---------------------------------------- misfire started about here
93hp   139lb/fts @ 3500rpm
100hp 131lb/fts @ 4000rpm

Unfortunately on the day at the dyno my ignition system was playing up and misfiring at 3000rpm and up so only have a pretty grim graph. Later traced the fault to a connection on the coil that was loose and causing all kinds of hell as the engine vibrated the ignition would just cut off and not spark. I intend to go back again and see what happens, even with a misfire it was making 100hp @4k with the car jumping about on the rollers and popping like a good'un.

That graph is a thing of beauty! What are the specs you went for?

I think my motor won't get near 170hp, be very happy with 140hp. Do wheels and tyres make any difference to the results on a chassis dyno? I had 15x10J wide wheels on with big 265 tyres on, pretty heavy things all things considered. Now have 5.5 centerlines and 205s. I can definately feel the lack of traction and lack of rotating mass now, it's like a new car, well, you know what I mean... 

[dannyboy]

i used my old race engine as a donor so .2276 ,10.1 cr  engle 120 cam ,stock rockers and stock ali pushrods,GAC wedgeported 044 heads and a speedshop idf 45mm injection kit using a ems aem4 ecu

[dannyboy]

it was mapped on a engine dyno not rolling road once i get the engine and all the bits needed to go efi ill put it on the local rolling road where im pretty sure itll make another 5-10 hp as my racemotor made 205 on this dyno and 225 on the local rolling road 
hp wasnt my aim for this motor drivability was ...... but 170  wont do any harm will it 

[tonybone]

Nice one Danny !! Should drive sweet and be bolt in and leave it alone !!

Cheers

Tony