Oilsquirters or not?

[-Alex-]

Is there any reason not to install oilsquirters to a very high performance type 1 engine?


Roger Crawford said that the Porsche pistons had a pocket under the piston that the oil went into and the idea
worked but with standard pistons it causes oil problems.

[dragvw2180]

 I remember on my 1969  911E  that there was virtually no oil pressure at idle and it was normal per the dealer , when you increased your RPM's oil pressure shot right up. This was caused in part because of the squirters I believe.  Mike McCarthy

[Frallan]

Oil squirters are good.
Now on a non turbo (or SC engine) AC VW engine, not really a strong need.

F1, Indy, Le Mans and similar engines do have them even without turbo. 2-4 nozzles per pistons not unusual.

In the early time of F1 turbo Mahle developed a oil chamber area behind the ring package.
A nozzle directed a spray in to that chamber. Very expensive and not really the way forward today of today.

A proffesional engineered nozzle does not influense low rpm as it has a spring and ball restrictor that opens first at 25-30 psi.

In mid 80´s I ran simple drilled 1,5 mm nozzles in the main bearing saddle on a TIV engine and nothing else.
It worked OK on idle even if it had no restrictor, but only because of a high level dry sump oil system.

Here is a site with many nozzles to choose from, if you still wish to go that route.

http://www.bingpower.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/oesd_vergleichstabelle.pdf

[ibg]

I use the porsche squirters and have good idle pressure with a 26mm pump, 10 - 15 psi warm, 10-30 oil, as said they don't open until the pressure goes up with revs. I have SE heads which are not good for cooling but the oil squirters make a substantial contribution, along with nickies and a thermal coating package. Still OK in summer in OZ at 37 deg summer temps (close to 100F).

[-Alex-]

According to porsche, it can lower piston underside temperatures up to 100F.   

Installing costs about 200 dollars, not very expensive.

[DWL_Puavo]

Last weekend's 6 hours endurance was driven in 25-27c. With Porsche 964 piston squirters installed / 2bar internal valve, oil temperature stayed between 100-110 celcius and oil pressure went below 2bar only in lower rpm's like 800-1500. Supposedly they worked and transfered temperature from inside the engine. Although we had to ease up every other round (1min 30sec flat out, 1min 40sec with ease) to ensure the oil temp staying under 110 as it was about as hot as it gets here in Finland. On 5500rpm oil pressure was somewhere between 3.5 - 4 bar. Quick setup regarding our ~150hp N/A engine:

- Gulf racing 10W-60 fully synthetic
- 964 piston squirters
- 32mm schadek
- full-flow with big filter, 70c in-line thermostat and 16-row mocal with 200W fan
- Added fresh air intakes from the scoops on the side of the car to the doghouse and mocal
- T4-cooler on doghouse with venturi ring
- 8.1:1 static CR (torque minded cam)
- CB alu case, 2275 with wisecos, msd, 044 etc (quite similar than the "internet engine")
- Oil temperature measured from T3 oil inlet blocking plate (e.g. just after oil gets back from bearings, heads and cylinders)

I can't imagine why you shouldn't install them if you're going to have big enough oil pump and there is at least enough cooling for oil: OEM doghouse cooler and maybe added oil cooler in FF. Supposedly if hot oil pressure doesn't build up on rpm after 2bar -> pump is not big enough. 200$ sounds reasonable as the squirters themselves are around 20-25eur/pcs.

Puavo

[-Alex-]

TP drysump pump has 26/38 gears, but he can make with 30/38 gears.

[MeXX]

TP drysump pump has 26/38 gears, but he can make with 30/38 gears.

Dear Alex

30 mm will be neccessary at least if you want to run oil squirters

MeXX

[pupjoint]

any pics of these squirters installed in a Type 1 case?

[181]

nozzle side



bearing side

[-Alex-]

Here is some info too:  


Charles at LNengineering says that they are not needed on a nickies equipped engine, but no harm if they are installed, cooling the pistons with nickies does not affect tolerances.

Jake Raby has them on some engines too.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145428&highlight=squirters

Most use N/A 911 squirters.

Some say that 26mm pump is enough, some say 30mm. I think i'll go with 30/38 pump.  With 4" bore on a TF-1 there is no standard oilcooler, i will put large FRONT oilcooler and drysump tank to under rear window.

[JLaw]

Rather than installing oil squirters has anyone had any good results from v notching the rods? I like the simplicity of this technique directing the otherwise 'wasted' oil dispelled from the rod bearing to the underside of the piston without needing to draw oil pressure away from the main bearings like the squirters do..

[Eddie DVK]

Rather than installing oil squirters has anyone had any good results from v notching the rods? I like the simplicity of this technique directing the otherwise 'wasted' oil dispelled from the rod bearing to the underside of the piston without needing to draw oil pressure away from the main bearings like the squirters do..

Yes I like to know also.
VW recemended this for type 4 engines
http://www.keversite.nl/downloads/vwtechbulletin.pdf

Regards Edgar

[Torben Alstrup]

It works. I do it on all higher end engines, along with a couple of other mods taken from the aviation industry. It usually takes 10-15 degrees out of the heads, and there is much less risk of scuffing the cylinders when things are busy.

T

[kingsburgphil]

Rather than installing oil squirters has anyone had any good results from v notching the rods? I like the simplicity of this technique directing the otherwise 'wasted' oil dispelled from the rod bearing to the underside of the piston without needing to draw oil pressure away from the main bearings like the squirters do..

That technique was used on some domestic production engines, 1930's - 50's. 

It worked OK, until normal rod bearing wear resulted in excessive oil consumption.

[-Alex-]

I was going to buy  Thorstens 30/38 gear pump, but at the moment only option from his is 26/38 gear pump.

TP drysump pump has 26/38 gears, but he can make with 30/38 gears.

Dear Alex

30 mm will be neccessary at least if you want to run oil squirters

MeXX

[Qazzer]

Sorry for waking up a zombie thread

Has anyone installed spray bars in heads to cool heads, valves, springs and rockers?

Nozzles drilled in valve covers might do the trick as well? Yeah 3/4 side is full of oil but according to some with higher revs it's not completely full and this would definitely help 1/2 side.

Any insight?

[spanners]

Sorry for waking up a zombie thread

Has anyone installed spray bars in heads to cool heads, valves, springs and rockers?

Nozzles drilled in valve covers might do the trick as well? Yeah 3/4 side is full of oil but according to some with higher revs it's not completely full and this would definitely help 1/2 side.

Any insight?

Forums can breed complexity because simple scores no points. ive seen spraybars and seen them break.
all you need is modified rockers to spray oil but ask yourself first if you have a problem.
i developed my system for a ram air cooled circuit motor where heat soak between qualifying and two races about half hour apart killed the valve springs among other things, i must be the only racer that ever encouraged oil slosh up into the valve covers to help cool the heads, oil temp after qualifying was always 130c..
dry sump prevented this with no oil surge up the pr tubes, so again, needs must, i modified the rocker gear for more oil flow as i had numerous stuck intake valves with dry sump motors...

[spanners]

modified rocker. [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[spanners]

later lightened version with more oil to the valve stem. [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[Frallan]

Thanks Spanners!  I like you input in many ways.

[spanners]

Thanks Spanners!  I like you input in many ways.

Thxs and you are most welcome, i also learn from you gents.🤓

[effvee]

Hello, first time posting here. With aluminum cylinders, coated with a nickel seal material. The piston to cylinder wall clearance are much closer . From what I have read, because of the close tolerances, oil squirters should be used. Porsche only upgraded that because of the aluminum cylinders and their expansion rate verses Steel.