Berg rockers. Quality kit or overpriced nostalgia ?

[spoolin70]

Afternoon ladies and gentlemen.

As I eat my crisps during my enforced lunch break, I ponder the worth of Berg rockers.
A mate swears by them and a trusted engine builder has recommended them
for my new engine (they are a part I don't have yet) but are they really worth the money ?
Is it the design, the material or the fact that they were once quality parts when others
rocker sets weren't as good (and they are still held in high regard) but now standards/materials have improved and other sets are just as good ?

I'm not going to rev into 5 figures, maybe 7k max. Street driven mainly.
Just want some reliable, quality rockers.

Thoughts, warnings and recommendations gratefully received.
Thanks
Darren

[dragvw2180]

 I bought my Berg rockers around 1989 and really have had no problems with them and I am still using them without any problems . I see the crazy prices people ask for and get for them and I just scratch my head , but if someone wanted mine I would turn them down because they are a quality part. If you were going to race your car I might say they were worth the cost but with limited performance and milage being put on them I might save that money and spend it somewhere else . I have used some of the CB units and liked them,           http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1577   and for the price are very strong and well built.  Mike McCarthy

[JS]

I have good experience with these Scat rockers for street and strip.
http://www.piersideparts.net/SE20196.html

If and how much better BERG's are? No idea, sorry.

[TexasTom]

I would imagine the opinions on this will be all over the place!

In my experiences ... I've used them for years with absolutely NO problems or failures whatsoever.
The quality is second to none.
The great part is they have a quite low moment of inertia due to the slender design with excellent material in the right places so they're very strong.
There are/were also multiple different ratios ... 1.4, 1.45, & 1.54:1 (even a few 1.65:1 sets floating around!).
If you've seen or heard of the JPM rockers, I believe they are made very similarly and in the same foundry ... perhaps a price comparison between them could be argued as the quality is the same (in my opinion, having used both).
Are they necessary? Perhaps not ... kinda like running original Fuchs or the copies ... they both still get ya down the road.


The way I see it, if the design, implementation and/or quality was lacking, why are there now so many copies?
TxT

[JLaw]

I think Spoolin70 may be playing down his requirements slightly. His motor will be making in excess of 600bhp, used on the street and on the track. Obviously component choice is very important and you hear a lot of mixed reviews on the mass produced Chinese parts. The Del West rockers looked interesting..

[Udo]

Those Berg rockers are the best you can get . I think there are no others that do not wear out or get pittings and they have the correct ratio - except the alu pauters

Udo

[andy54]

i love my berg rockers...

[spoolin70]

Thanks to all those that replied.
The votes are in and It looks like they are quality parts ! Not a single bad word said against them (except the price perhaps)
Good to know that after years of use they are still reliable.

TexasTom - you say the JPM's are the same quality. I did consider them as I'm using JPM heads. The 5 stud versions look great
but personally I don't think I need them. Like JLaw said, my new motor should be around 600bhp but with only around 7k max revs
and not massive spring pressures (JPM springs and pushrods), I can't really justify the price or need.
Or are there other criteria I'm missing ?

Either way, looks like the Berg hunt is on !

[peejke]

I'm using autocraft rockers, never had any problems with them, they came with my engine so never had the need to look for others.

[Jon]

Thanks to all those that replied.
The votes are in and It looks like they are quality parts ! Not a single bad word said against them (except the price perhaps)
Good to know that after years of use they are still reliable.

TexasTom - you say the JPM's are the same quality. I did consider them as I'm using JPM heads. The 5 stud versions look great
but personally I don't think I need them. Like JLaw said, my new motor should be around 600bhp but with only around 7k max revs
and not massive spring pressures (JPM springs and pushrods), I can't really justify the price or need.
Or are there other criteria I'm missing ?

Either way, looks like the Berg hunt is on !

His point is, you could buy JPM rockers as they come in a two stud version to.  They are forged the same way with the same material by the same people in the same factory... You never know, they may just work the same :j

[Zach Gomulka]

Thanks to all those that replied.
The votes are in and It looks like they are quality parts ! Not a single bad word said against them (except the price perhaps)
Good to know that after years of use they are still reliable.

TexasTom - you say the JPM's are the same quality. I did consider them as I'm using JPM heads. The 5 stud versions look great
but personally I don't think I need them. Like JLaw said, my new motor should be around 600bhp but with only around 7k max revs
and not massive spring pressures (JPM springs and pushrods), I can't really justify the price or need.
Or are there other criteria I'm missing ?

Either way, looks like the Berg hunt is on !

His point is, you could buy JPM rockers as they come in a two stud version to.  They are forged the same way with the same material by the same people in the same factory... You never know, they may just work the same :j

$1300 US... thats a pretty serious investment. But a 600hp engine is also.

[neil68]

For the North American buyers, I just wanted to point out that the price listed on JPM's site is the local price including tax.  The export price is approximately 75%, so the 2-bolt rocker shaft kit would cost approximately $985USD at today's exchange rate...still not cheap in price.

I've purchased MS230 heads a couple years ago, and a Raptor cam kit last year...and the prices weren't too bad for export to North America.  Maybe someone will step up and become a dealer some day, to get a break on bulk freight orders

[spoolin70]

It does make me wonder though, if JPM rockers are $985 and used Bergs are $300 to $500, with them having such a good
track record and the similarities between the two (material etc) and the 5 stud versions aside, where's the extra money going ?
Granted they will be brand new rather than a few years old minimum (when did they stop being made?)

Dont get me wrong, I'm not knocking JPM products. I own his great parts and went to Sweden specifically for the last dyno day,
but for me personally, I can see the Bergs being my first choice.

Just got to find some now. Anyone got any gathering dust ?

[Udo]

I'm using autocraft rockers, never had any problems with them, they came with my engine so never had the need to look for others.

You are right , i still have a set that was on the Vanderhorst super street engine, and still look like new :-)

Udo

[pupjoint]

It does make me wonder though, if JPM rockers are $985 and used Bergs are $300 to $500, with them having such a good
track record and the similarities between the two (material etc) and the 5 stud versions aside, where's the extra money going ?
Granted they will be brand new rather than a few years old minimum (when did they stop being made?)

Dont get me wrong, I'm not knocking JPM products. I own his great parts and went to Sweden specifically for the last dyno day,
but for me personally, I can see the Bergs being my first choice.

Just got to find some now. Anyone got any gathering dust ?

i think used Berg rockers are going for more than USD500....from what i see being advertised

[neil68]

Here's some original EMPI 1.4's for $1,100:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=889738

And Berg 1.45's for $320:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1290402

[spoolin70]

Cheers for the tip off.

It's Saturday, it's sunny, and I'm on my way to work (as usual).
Think I'll be taking advantage of our empty office and using one of the help desk computers to enquire about those Bergs.

Thanks all.
Have a good weekend.

Darren

[TexasTom]

Don't think you're necessarily 'missing anything', Spool.
As to the need or necessity, my personal perspective on these engines is they suffer severely from the inside out and ANYTHING that can be done to counteract that fact is a plus.
Everything happens starting at the foundation ... the original cases were spec'd for 55 hp so taking one to 200+ and twice the rpm they were intended for will be ... let's just say it's a strain. Even the replacement aluminum cases of late will be stressed at you cylinder pressures. So as you move outward in the assembly, more and more stresses are affecting the mechanical systems. Thicker wall cylinders are necessary along with attention to strength AND lightweight components! This has all been proven many times over in the past. All those things slinging around at twice their original intended speed is quite abusive so the attention to detail has to be near perfect! And, what's the point of making the journey if you cannot return to revisit?
I try to use the best components I can, check to prepare them for use in these situations, in attempt to counteract those effects for the interests of longevity.

In the case of the JPM rockers, the 5 stud application was created to reduce valvetrain flex and inconsistency in extreme situations. The rocker arm design is dead nuts for a Berg rocker and they perform flawlessly from my experiences.
As I mentioned before,  the deviations that I imagine will be experienced over time from extreme cylinder pressures generated in a horizontally opposed 4 cylinder engine producing 600+hp will likely produce equally extreme maintenance intervals, so why not equip yourself as best you can?

Sounds like it will be fun!
TxT

[spoolin70]

Thanks for the reply. I've read it a few times just to take it all in and appreciate what your saying. Any high horsepower engine
requires (deserves) quality parts. Any weak link could cause mass damage/expense and just be a false commodity in the long term.
That's the skill in part selection I suppose. Matching all the parts of an engine to not only work well together but also be at the same
level.
Does a mild 1641 need roller throttle bodies ? Probably not.
Does a 3 litre need quality pistons ? Most definitely.

I've thought long and hard about the components of this engine, trying to do them all justice. Does make my head spin sometimes.

Ok, back to the subject. Hoping to use duel maps so I'll be limiting hp to perhaps 400 and switch to 600 (hopefully) as required.
Those 5 bolt JPM's sure are nice, but damn they are expensive. I've never looked at a set of Bergs up close.

Could they be made into 3 bolt with the addition of a center mounting block ?

Anyone got any 5 bolt JPM's gathering dust haha

[Shag55]

Here's some original EMPI 1.4's for $1,100:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=889738

And Berg 1.45's for $320:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1290402

I sent this guy a money order for these 1.45 Bergs and he burnt me. He said he lost the money order and the next day he sold them to someone els. Now I need to try to retrieve my money back. Lesson learned to stick with Pay Pal.

[Shag55]

I have a set of like new Berg 1.4s I would sell if its the right price. I need some 1.45s

[Frallan]

Here's some original EMPI 1.4's for $1,100:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=889738

And Berg 1.45's for $320:  http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1290402

I sent this guy a money order for these 1.45 Bergs and he burnt me. He said he lost the money order and the next day he sold them to someone els. Now I need to try to retrieve my money back. Lesson learned to stick with Pay Pal.

That SUCKS!!!

I was involved in the origibal GB crank connection between Sweden and GB. Same goes for the rockers. Same foundry and link.
Now as far as I know, GB rockers and JPM, same basic quality if not even a bit detail improvements on JPM plus the 5 bolt that is worth it, in the long run if you run the high side of springs and cylinder pressures.

[TexasTom]

I have a set of like new Berg 1.4s I would sell if its the right price. I need some 1.45s

I'll check over my inventory ... 
TxT

[spoolin70]

I see the ad for the Bergs is now showing as inactive. Perhaps someone caught up with him ?
Hope you get your money back and nobody else gets scammed.

Any thoughts on adapting the Bergs to 3 bolt mounting ? There is a lot of unused area in the center that could be used for another mounting block.
I have that option with the JPM heads. Thinking a longer version of the original
mounts? Sleeved and/or grooved for oiling?

[spoolin70]

Hi shag, pm sent

[Fiatdude]

I sold my Berg's for a set of Pauters as I was upping my HP into the 500 range -- On any boost application, a little flutter at the valve can hurt stuff fast. So better rockers and a higher spring pressure

[Frallan]

I sold my Berg's for a set of Pauters as I was upping my HP into the 500 range -- On any boost application, a little flutter at the valve can hurt stuff fast. So better rockers and a higher spring pressure

Not a bad thought!

[Shag55]

The Pauters are nice but as the aluminum does we're and get weaker I feel these should be for race only engines or should be changed after a few years of driving. Bye the way they have a new design in the works with improved shaft mounting and should be out shortly.