European records, should we have some?

[nickedwards]

guys, i don't bother posting to the forum often, visiting it just to keep on top of the scene. I don't believe i can input an awful lot at the moment.... however when it comes to this i hope i can add a bit of perspective...

Firstly, lets get real... how many people are actually interested outside of our small community in records and trophies. If you want records and pride to show off to Joe Public, make it simple, so they can understand it... yes we all understand the ideas in this forum, but don't they just get far too complex... We all want records, but a record has to be worthwhile, not every record is something to be proud of...

You risk alienating any audience if they don't understand the rules, how many times have we all thought this in F1? If you are going to attract new entrants and a wider audience then make it simpler.... 4 classes (panned and tube in both N/A and turbo and that's it) and declared engine CC, stroke and bore, so it might create a list that has the big CC cars like Richies at the top , but at least everyone knows why... the public and competitors know what they are up against, for once!

If you carry on the way you are with classes and rules, you will create a format that defines everyone in their own class, its not primary school we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less..... do it for the thrill, remember that? its why we all started...

I am sure I will get shot down, but your losses, making it simple means everyone can compete and its easy for all to understand, especially your audience and those you want to attract with shiny new motors (like me!)

Just how are you going to define those classes to your audience, I cant wait to see it...

[MeXX]

If you carry on the way you are with classes and rules, you will create a format that defines everyone in their own class, its not primary school we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less..... do it for the thrill, remember that? its why we all started...

I am sure I will get shot down, but your losses, making it simple means everyone can compete and its easy for all to understand, especially your audience and those you want to attract with shiny new motors (like me!)

Just how are you going to define those classes to your audience, I cant wait to see it...

Hi

I agree.

It has to be simple so that everyone understands, but it has to be written down exactly what is allowed and what is prohibited in each class to stop endless discussion about cheating.

MeXX

[nickedwards]

Just not too complex, any flat 4 motor of VW style origin is good, split it any further and you get into a whole heap of rules and regs, and this is supposed to be FUN...

I will put in my two pennth as a relative outsider....The Skinne car should sit right at the top for as long as its numbers allow, we should all take our hats off to those guys. Instead of taking the easy reliable route (pauter big block) they have gone a route that many of us would not challenge and built a motor from scratch, for that they deserve more than excluding, they need commending. In my book its the car builders who can race who deserve the trophies, without them in this small arena it would be all but dead...so lets think about that, there is far more skill in building a car than buying it in my book, maybe self builders should get some bonus points (that would make lower budget cars more even!)

So lets celebrate the great people creating some amazing and crazy cars, the Skinne bug deserve a medal for what they have done with a wasserboxer (alng with Marco Mansi for all Torque motor) not discussions of exclusion as they are after all currently unbeatable.That is not sport, they work with a motor set for less than 100hp and achieve over 1000hp, Pauter blocks were made for the job.... I know which one has more skill and ability and his times truly are incredible.

If you cant beat em you cant just rule em out....

Rant over, think I will leave this to you to decide now!

[nickedwards]

Cant put this down now...

Regulations are all well and good, but we arent competing together, rules take away from the spirit and the engineering challenge of more than pushing the boundaries, sure we all agree that the US racing would be more fun if the rules were as simple as either panned (as in it has the floorpan in place) or tube, and the motor is either NA or Forced.

The skill in this is making more out of what you have (or less in the form of weight) not governing it with a load of rules, it will fall apart... then its a waste of time.

To me, and others its down to the CC of your motor and the skill of the builder, if we are honest about what we have underneath then everyone knows the boundaries to push and where to aim. The public understand it . if you dont want to push boundaries then its not a record is it?

Come on lets get a grip, there are no more than 30 cars in line for even the top 10 overall, so rules just make it a waste of time and no fun all for 30 part time racers

Panned = having centre tunnel and floor that VW gave the car
Tube = not as above

NA = no form of forced induction
Turbo = any form of forced induction

Job done, now lets crack on and award Skinne until someone else can catch them up  . They in my opinion are the heroes of this scene, no bull, no messing, they do it all and no shouting about it, no doubt my heroes and who I aim to compete against...

Thats it, stir it up with my two penneth....over and out 

See you all soon with all torque 2 hopefully to stir up things

[MeXX]

So far so good

As I see we all (I hope at least most) agree to the four classes:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder

We just have to consider:

1. what is allowed/prohibited in general.
2. what is allowed/prohibited in the Pan car classes (all other should be race cars).


MeXX

[richie]

guys, i don't bother posting to the forum often, visiting it just to keep on top of the scene. I don't believe i can input an awful lot at the moment.... however when it comes to this i hope i can add a bit of perspective...

Firstly, lets get real... how many people are actually interested outside of our small community in records and trophies. If you want records and pride to show off to Joe Public, make it simple, so they can understand it... yes we all understand the ideas in this forum, but don't they just get far too complex... We all want records, but a record has to be worthwhile, not every record is something to be proud of...

You risk alienating any audience if they don't understand the rules, how many times have we all thought this in F1? If you are going to attract new entrants and a wider audience then make it simpler.... 4 classes (panned and tube in both N/A and turbo and that's it) and declared engine CC, stroke and bore, so it might create a list that has the big CC cars like Richies at the top , but at least everyone knows why... the public and competitors know what they are up against, for once!

If you carry on the way you are with classes and rules, you will create a format that defines everyone in their own class, its not primary school we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less..... do it for the thrill, remember that? its why we all started...

I am sure I will get shot down, but your losses, making it simple means everyone can compete and its easy for all to understand, especially your audience and those you want to attract with shiny new motors (like me!)

Just how are you going to define those classes to your audience, I cant wait to see it...

Hi Nick

 1st of all you have a race car and want to race so your opinion is just as valid & welcome as everyone else  maybe we are reading the way this thread has gone differently but I thought it was pretty much agreed the WBX was allowed and also the crazy ohc versions of the VW engine that some have created and with 4 main classes [don't think that the power adder classes should be called turbo as that will confuse the public surely? ]  and what we don't need is lists, there are already enough lists out there, you said it yourself its not primary school, not everyone will get a prize, it should only be the best, quickest, fastest, how you do that is up to you, not everyone can build the total 100% car themselves an shouldn't be judged on what they can or cannot do. The Skinne car is a good example, who do you credit with the success? the guy who builds the car or the guy that drives it to those amazing times? its all part of the package

You say and I quote " we all want records"   and then say "we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less" so which is it?

cheers Richie

[MeXX]

Panned = having centre tunnel and floor that VW gave the car
Tube = not as above

NA = no form of forced induction
Turbo = any form of forced induction

You are right,

no one should be ruled out,
but we have to be carefull to have no too much but exact rules.

As you mentioned before :
Panned = having centre tunnel and floor that VW gave the car;
so all cars that have up grated from link pin to ball joint or from swing axle to IRS or the other way would be forced in the race cars class.


MeXX

[richie]

Just not too complex, any flat 4 motor of VW style origin is good, split it any further and you get into a whole heap of rules and regs, and this is supposed to be FUN...

I will put in my two pennth as a relative outsider....The Skinne car should sit right at the top for as long as its numbers allow, we should all take our hats off to those guys. Instead of taking the easy reliable route (pauter big block) they have gone a route that many of us would not challenge and built a motor from scratch, for that they deserve more than excluding, they need commending. In my book its the car builders who can race who deserve the trophies, without them in this small arena it would be all but dead...so lets think about that, there is far more skill in building a car than buying it in my book, maybe self builders should get some bonus points (that would make lower budget cars more even!)

Really?


and you do understand the need to back up the pass within 1% ? so I am not even sure that the Skinne car is at the top of the pile?

So lets celebrate the great people creating some amazing and crazy cars, the Skinne bug deserve a medal for what they have done with a wasserboxer (alng with Marco Mansi for all Torque motor) not discussions of exclusion as they are after all currently unbeatable.That is not sport, they work with a motor set for less than 100hp and achieve over 1000hp, Pauter blocks were made for the job.... I know which one has more skill and ability and his times truly are incredible.

If you cant beat em you cant just rule em out....

Rant over, think I will leave this to you to decide now!

now you are taking the piss  how is what Marco did amazing? its a lighter more complex car than Skinnes and ran 1.5 seconds slower? my old car with no fancy suspension[stock everything except torsion bars and shocks and drop spindles], 250-300lbs more weight, no wheelie bars etc etc went 9.23@152mph with a bunch of cheap of the shelf parts that anyone could buy an build into a quick combo, if the engine in All torque was so good why did you swap it out after only a few passes?
  
And it has nothing to do with them being unbeatable, this is an Aircooled VW forum and we are talking about Aircooled VW cars so to allow or not to allow watercooled cars is very relevant.

I love the Skinne car, it is fantastic to watch, and the achievements are incredible, don't try to make this about something its not  

[richie]

Come on lets get a grip, there are no more than 30 cars in line for even the top 10 overall, so rules just make it a waste of time and no fun all for 30 part time racers

Panned = having centre tunnel and floor that VW gave the car
Tube = not as above
NA = no form of forced induction
Turbo = any form of forced induction

Thats it, stir it up with my two penneth....over and out 

See you all soon with all torque 2 hopefully to stir up things

Its about the suspension, not whats is inbetween, all these cars will have a substantial cage so the actual floor becomes irrelevant, maybe it would be simpler to call it "stock suspension" rather than floorpan so everyone understands.

look forward to seeing your car back out again, what we really need is more cars pushing the barriers

cheers Richie

[MeXX]

Dear everyone

I think we should stop the discussion who is in an who's out.

Let's do it step by step:

1.European records, should we have some?
IMO and I hope most will agree:
Yes!!


2.The classes
IMO and I hope most will agree:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder


2,5. The need of a back up run?
IMO Yes
That really changes allot we all know what it takes run a record and it takes really much more to run it twice on the same event.


3. What is allowed/prohibited in general.

and

4. What is allowed/prohibited in the Pan car classes (all other should be race cars).

and

5.what is allowed/prohibited in the power adder classes.






MeXX

[nickedwards]

Think we will agree to disagree. We clearly arent going to get on are we! I have no axe to grind, just look at this from an outsiders point of view... possibly the most unbiased you will get as I have no history or opinions...

Can I do what Marco or Skinne have done? I have no interest in arguing, but take my hat off to the waterboxer guys and the time invested by a small group of people. They should be commended for that. I for one cannot even consider the work involved and the technical knowhow Skinne have called upon is outside the norm.

I dont want to bother getting into a discussion about this I just wanted you all to get some 'perspective.'  Sadly, you have straight away picked up two comments in completely different context and compared them, why no real comments on my ideas? You then are outraged when I speak from my point of view... we are not going to see eye to eye, but that could add to the fun  

So for clarity as you quoted me...

QUOTE- 'we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less'

MEANS- I am not interested in tropies, its not what motivates me or gets me out of bed. Others that dont bother posting her must feel the same. I am living a dream I wanted to fulfil 20 years ago, but didnt have the time of dollars to do it, using the best possible knowledge and skill I can get my hands on. I was referrring to seperating out classes so there are almost as many trophies as quick cars...

However

QUOTE- 'we all want records'

MEANS- We all want records to be broken, thats pushing the boundaries and what the hobby is about, isnt it

Am I clear? hope so if not drop me an email. I am a genuine chap just interested in seeing how quick a VW panned car can go, but you wont see my picture in a magazine, there is no build thread, just a desire to do it my way, thats why no one on here has any concrete info where we are today. I have no desire about making it about me, its the determination to master the build of a quick car and then on my first year of racing really let it go that gets me motivated. Being forced to put this in writing makes me remember how much as well...  

Now lets forget this and make it nice and simple and above all WELCOMING TO ALL, if its not no one will care and it will be ignored and that means an arena that is dimishing anyway disappears... And lets not have any more slagging anyone off please!

Thats it from me, pull everything I have said to pieces, but I have at least spoken out, I am not going to get upset..... Skinne have the right idea, keep quiet and blow everyone away with the skill. And dont go onto me about them not being builders and drivers, how is he going to be he is 90% blind, even more brownie points from me   in that case having a driver seems OK in my book.....

Now come on, lets all calm down and get some perspective...

[nickedwards]

Thats it from me, I put in my two penneth and got my point down, if not listened too I cant say I didnt try

One thing is clear, the rules should be formulated by someone who has nothing to gain and is reasonably impartial. Not a racer,  the way I look at the thread its clear rules are formulated to either include or restrct specific cars, thats not sport.

I think its discussion over until someone finds a retired racer who can be impartial when creating rules. Typically just like everything else beauracricy is getting in the way of having a bit of a laugh, next it will be health and safety..

Thats it from me. Over and out, good luck to everyone, come over and say hello if you see us soon

[nickedwards]

Lastly,

I took the motor from all torque as I wanted it quicker. What I am unable to do is start making the top end from scratch to increase CC, A pauter big block was the easy way out for me, not necessarily the better option, but one I can maintain and get parts for, a big bore waterboxer sadly is not, more reason why I take myhat off to Skinne, I investigated repeating this and its tough, so I took the easy way out.

I want a car I can get parts from in weeks, not have to make from scratch. I am no engineer, so a decision had to be made and Pauter offer a better option in my circumstances. However the all torque motor will reappear, better then ever, be sure.

The best things come to those who wait, and I waited 20 years to do this

Now I really do have other things to do, just didnt read what was posted after my last comment.

[richie]

Two things

1: just because we may disagree on 1 or a million things doesn't mean we wont or couldn't get on, racers tend to be a strange breed, the motivation and desire to succeed go hand in hand with a single mindedness, I am sure you already know and realise this

2: You do know Red baron was a pan car till this year don't you? just backhalved with ladder bars, so that should satisfy you need to know how quick a panned VW can go  now if you think that that is the same as racing a stock suspension VW then that's ok, but it doesn't seem right to all those that race genuinely stock VW floorpan and suspension cars to include them in the same category.

cheers Richie

Edited for my poor spelling

[Martin]

Blimy, just read this thread,

it all seams a little complicated. I really don't think its worth a debate on so many rules for such a relatively small group of "same make" racers.

i for one like the list thats on here. Sums it up nicely.

May be its an idea to leave the years No1 on the list for the following year, to give us something to aim for.

I personally am not bothered what type of suspension the cars have. people have gone fast on all the types of suspension. And im not even bothered if its got water in it. For me its about the VW type of motor (2 valve pushrod motor). its about making the power and delivering it to the track in the most efficient way.

I think thats all we need.


just my opinion.


Martin

[nickedwards]

Martin, Glad to hear that....I was beginning to think that everyone on here was staying quiet 

Rules equal no fun and a whole lot of arguing, so why bother? So my time wasn't wasted yesterday after all!!

So lets just be honest, show your hand and see how quick you can go....

So, declare engine cc (and no bullshit please) and lets crack on....sounds like old school racing to me.. It's been fun for 50 years so why piss about with it?

Think we may have a formula now, so lets stop wasting our time formulating rules👌

[Fasterbrit]

now you are taking the piss  how is what Marco did amazing? its a lighter more complex car than Skinnes and ran 1.5 seconds slower? my old car with no fancy suspension[stock everything except torsion bars and shocks and drop spindles], 250-300lbs more weight, no wheelie bars etc etc went 9.23@152mph with a bunch of cheap of the shelf parts that anyone could buy an build into a quick combo, if the engine in All torque was so good why did you swap it out after only a few passes?

Richie... I feel I have to speak out here on behalf of my old car 'All Torque' and Marco. Firstly, why do you feel the need to discredit the car and its achievements?  It was built on a tight budget over a period of 10 years as a 'fun' car. I never for a moment dreamed it would run mid nines, but with Marco's help (for free!) and a fair amount of ingenuity, we were able to slowly dial the car in and get it running quicker and quicker. It's proof that if you persevere and have a good team, anything is possible!

 Hopefully along the way All Torque inspired others who were building, or were thinking of building, a race car, just as other cars (including yours) had inspired me to build my own. Ground breaking it perhaps wasn't, but I'm sure many on here will agree it was fun to watch, as it  was one of only a handful of UK cars to run a 'nine', which, I'm sure you will agree, is no mean feat.

Had I have had a sponsor or even several sponsors, then I might have been able to carry on developing the car. Sadly, a reality check prevented this. Enter the car's new owner, Nick Edwards. Nick, with our help,  has taken the car to another level. It is now a serious race car...

[Jon]

Seems people think we are developing a racing series with rules that need to be understood by the general public.

I thought it was a simple little list with four to five names on, for  "internal" reference only.

Just my 2 øre

[richie]

now you are taking the piss  how is what Marco did amazing? its a lighter more complex car than Skinnes and ran 1.5 seconds slower? my old car with no fancy suspension[stock everything except torsion bars and shocks and drop spindles], 250-300lbs more weight, no wheelie bars etc etc went 9.23@152mph with a bunch of cheap of the shelf parts that anyone could buy an build into a quick combo, if the engine in All torque was so good why did you swap it out after only a few passes?

Richie... I feel I have to speak out here on behalf of my old car 'All Torque' and Marco. Firstly, why do you feel the need to discredit the car and its achievements?  It was built on a tight budget over a period of 10 years as a 'fun' car. I never for a moment dreamed it would run mid nines, but with Marco's help (for free!) and a fair amount of ingenuity, we were able to slowly dial the car in and get it running quicker and quicker. It's proof that if you persevere and have a good team, anything is possible!

 Hopefully along the way All Torque inspired others who were building, or were thinking of building, a race car, just as other cars (including yours) had inspired me to build my own. Ground breaking it perhaps wasn't, but I'm sure many on here will agree it was fun to watch, as it  was one of only a handful of UK cars to run a 'nine', which, I'm sure you will agree, is no mean feat.

Had I have had a sponsor or even several sponsors, then I might have been able to carry on developing the car. Sadly, a reality check prevented this. Enter the car's new owner, Nick Edwards. Nick, with our help,  has taken the car to another level. It is now a serious race car...

Matt,

that is not how I meant it, I apologise if it came across that way to you


Nick wrote and I quote

So lets celebrate the great people creating some amazing and crazy cars, the Skinne bug deserve a medal for what they have done with a wasserboxer (alng with Marco Mansi for all Torque motor)

'What Skinne achieved is amazing and deserves the credit but in my opinion Marco doesn't, I feel Nicks comments actually are taking the piss to compare the 2 achievements, yes what you achieved on a small budget is very respectable, the car is/was[ haven't seen it so don't know] beautifully built and yes 9s for UK built cars are still rare and hard work but that's not what we were talking about, 8.0s with stock suspension in a heavy car is amazing, no one else this side of the world is anywhere near that so shouldn't be compared.
Maybe Niklas running 9.55 with a 1641 is as near an accomplishment as there is to it. But we are talking about record breaking / setting acomplishments here, not just good, I feel what I achieved with my old car was good but it isn't good enough to be able to claim any records that we are talking about here.

This is my last post on this Euro records subject as it has gone way off what I thought was a good idea and turned into something else completely, Jon's last post made the point perfectly, it was never meant to be about lists, runners up, previous bests or anything else, as its obvious there aren't enough that share my ideas on what racing an aircooled VW is all about as far as I am concerned this topic is done

cheers Richie

[MeXX]

IMO the discussion went into a wrong direction.

I don't think it's that difficult.

Just 4 classes:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder

Really easy to undersand for everyone !!
We just have to define exactly what cars and engines are allowed !!
We just have to define exactly what is allowed in the pan car class !!

The only real question I see at the moment where we need a consense is:
Do we need a backup run (within 1%) ??

I do not think this threat is a place for the discussion who has the best skills or something else.

MeXX

[Lids]

IMO the discussion went into a wrong direction.

I don't think it's that difficult.

Just 4 classes:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder

Really easy to undersand for everyone !!
We just have to define exactly what cars and engines are allowed !!
We just have to define exactly what is allowed in the pan car class !!

The only real question I see at the moment where we need a consense is:
Do we need a backup run (within 1%) ??

I do not think this threat is a place for the discussion who has the best skills or something else.

MeXX

I don't think a backup run is needed, they don't have them in athletics.

[johandryselius]

Hi all!

I think we all can meet around the 4 classes and possibly one outlaw class. At least "in my mind" for next season I have my car classified within these classes and that is what I will run against if it isn't decided or made "official"! I do believe in back-up within 1% should be there (once again, in my mind it is and will be) since one of the true challenges in drag racing is consistency. It also eliminates the questions in regards to that something might "have been wrong" with the timing system thus producing a "one-off" quick time.
So for all you out there - my car will be in the "class" #3, Race car NA!

Johan

[MeXX]

Hi all!
I do believe in backup within 1% should be there (once again, in my mind it is and will be) since one of the true challenges in drag racing is consistency.
Johan

I also think a backup within 1% should be a must!

Because NHRA and PRA has it.

MeXX

[Jyrki]

Hi all!
I do believe in backup within 1% should be there (once again, in my mind it is and will be) since one of the true challenges in drag racing is consistency.
Johan

I also think a backup within 1% should be a must!

MeXX

I agree.

Jyrki

[Ragtop]

Hi all!
I do believe in backup within 1% should be there (once again, in my mind it is and will be) since one of the true challenges in drag racing is consistency.
Johan

I also think a backup within 1% should be a must!

MeXX

I agree.

Jyrki

I agree as well

[Martin]

1% is good for me.

[cassa]

1% back up is the way to go.
(makes it even harder in Scandinavia due to few runs at the events )

For T. Ø Skinne.

[nickedwards]

Looks like we have some sense now that the dust has settled

As agreed this certainly isnt the place to put down anyones achievments, so lets keep to positives. Like my mother used to say 'if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing..'

Personally speaking, I have a lot of respect for Matt and Marco building All Torque and producing the hp they did, but I kept this out of the discussion, commending the Skinne car as it looked like someone was trying to exclude it. My minor remark about Marco was to to commend him as well in the same sentance...

What started out as me just trying to add some perspective to the discussion quickly turned into a full on assault at my comments.

My experience was a friendly bunch..till now!

1% or no 1% once its agreed its just the panned definition to box off....

Then lets move on

[Dead Dog]

OK just a thought....
maybe the pan or race car, could be :
Pan w/std or lightly modified suspension
Pan w/heavy mods or tube chassis

Then yes norm asp and power adder in the two classes.

Now maybe also........ add cc's into the mix too? say upto 2000 and above - i know this effectively doubles the amount of record holders, but as this isn't a 'top ten' is that really a problem? ...... or maybe that should be just one - quickest <2000cc

and another possibility......... street legal, just outright - the quickest street legal ( also to add that should be using street tyres for that time too - not swapped for slicks, then threads back on)

looking forward to it however it ends up 

[SixGun]

... a fifth class for Outlaw sounds good in my ears.