Bus Motors/1600 Single ports, Making the best of stock components!!!

[Lee.C]

Well as a few of you will know I have just completed a few kilometers around Europe & The UK..... Actually 6250kms to be exact  

And all in a STOCK Engine'd Bus (1600sp) now believe it or not I am actually quite happy with the Stock-ish motor
(it has a header & a single quiet pak)

I can sit at 110/115kph ALL DAY LONG even loaded up with parts etc and I even get 25+mpg

NOW BEFORE WE START..... I AM NOT SPLITTING THE CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(and even if I HAVE to the only thing that will be done is lightening & balancing)

BUT.......

I am planning ALOT more trips like this and I want to "Improve" the stock motor..... I could use a bit more Torque for the big hills and a bit more Power is never a bad thing  

I'd like to use as many STOCK/original VW parts as possible so repair/rebuild/breakdowns are cheaply & easily dealt with.....

I am thinking....

- Bosch "Blue" coil (Real German one!)
- Original type1 vacum style "1974 1600 dizzy" (and I want to stay with points & condenser!!!)
- A solex 34pict-3
- A Light Port & polish... and reshaping of the chambers
- a 3 angle vale job 
- A small raise in CR.... Max 8.5:1 
- Full Flow oil system with filter & Cooler.... Maybe remove the original cooler for better overall airflow 
- Deep Sump 

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts/experience with "Bus Motors"  

[Zach Gomulka]

Kadrons, lower the deck to .040". I'd say you're on the right track.

[Lee.C]

I wanted to try and stay with a single carb....

Just for ease of repairs/spare when out on the open roads of europe.....

[Zach Gomulka]

Zenith!

[Lee.C]

Zenith!

Yeah I was going to ask YOU about those..... 

Got any good threads/links/info 

[modnrod]

Zenith!

Hehehehe! I read once on The S@mb@ where someone wrote, "How come all the old guys use Zenith's and never have any tuning issues?"

I consider myself VERY lucky, I met an old circuit racer a couple of weeks ago (he races a 1962 Anglia with a bombed 1600 Kent motor, all home made  ), and he gave me one of his Bendix-Stromberg BOV-2 carbs out of his stash, he has 4 left. Never even had fuel in it, ever, brand new! 1 BBL, 180cfm flow (in 4BBL Holley speak), from experience I know this has better throttle response than a tweaked 34PICT, and with a custom centrebranch will equal twin Kads for power..........at least it did 15 years ago when I last did it!   I'm considering a Holley annular booster fitted up for smaller droplets and even better response, if I can make it work anyway.

A 34PICT on a CB centre section is excellent, but also don't forget the good old-fashioned Holley 350 on an isolated centre manifold, not a popular choice at all but one that works as well as the Zenith with "caveman" easy tuning. All the rest you listed should help too, they always did for me, but if you have a STOCK cam don't forget or rule out 1.4 rockers, easy 5% extra on top.

OOPS!!! Oh yeah, even more important, an SVDA dizzy, whether you get an expensive one from John "the Man" at Aircooled.net or modify one off a 1980s/1990s Mitsubishi Astron engine from the wrecker, beautiful to drive all round then.
Have fun!
 

[Lee.C]

Hmmmm........

The main idea here with this motor is "EASE OF REPAIR" this is why I want to use as many Stock VW/Bosch components as possible......so that repairs/parts/even rebuilds would not be a problem when I am out on the open roads of Europe 

YES I want a small increase in power but mainly TORQUE for the hills..... 

I know Porting/polishing the heads/manifold and increasing the CR will really help..... Its the smaller details I want some help with 

Like....
- Would it be "Best" to use a Bosch 010 OR 009 OR the Stock Distributor 
- What EXACT CR would people advise 
- What is the best way to get TORQUE when porting/polishing the original SP heads 
- etc etc etc

[modnrod]

Like....
- Would it be "Best" to use a Bosch 010 OR 009 OR the Stock Distributor 
Is Bosch 010 mechanical advance with vacuum advance for cruise economy?
Then a 010

- What EXACT CR would people advise 
8:1 with a 1mm deck will suit 92Octane+.

- What is the best way to get TORQUE when porting/polishing the original SP heads 
Valve seats and chambers.
- etc etc etc

I like baby "superstocker" motors, they drive just like OEM but with a larger grin.
6000km in an old Kombi sounds like a cool holiday.........

[Lee.C]

More like WORK..... Collecting and delivering parts 

Thanks for the advice/hints/tips....
Its kinda what I was thinking, I just want it to be RELIABLE and easy to repair/rebuild/get parts for....

So any more advice guys  What about an external cooler seeing as its a BUS 

[Neil Davies]

Extra cooling will be a good idea, and I'd add full flow oiling and a deep sump too. You can't have too much clean fresh oil!

I'd go with twin carbs as well. I know you said you want to be able to find spares anywhere, but I don't think you'll ever have problems with the carbs, and certainly nothing that would be any different to problems with the stock one. The only things that I can see going wrong with twin carbs are to do with the linkage and cable or plugged jets.

[Lee.C]

Hey Neil.....

As for the oiling.... I had kinda planned what you suggest,

- Large Extra/external cooler
- Proper Filter
- Deep sump
- Proper oil lines/fittings ie NO JUBILEE CLIPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for Carbs.... I do get what you and everyone says about dual carbs BUT I kinda like the ease/simplicity of the single, and the nice reliable VW Autochoke 

One question I do have though.... What is better for TORQUE Long OR Short manifold 

[JamieL]

Twin carbs with small chokes on short manifolds with long stacks with the best valve+chamber job you can get for max port velocity (NB - not best outright flow) in order to get best throttle response and optimum fuel atomisation at part throttle openings...
With a properly curved SVDA dizzy and 1.4 rockers 😄
Oh and make sure you get ported vacuum from both sides (not just manifold vacuum) to the dizzy via an Alfa anti-pulse valve 😉

[Lee.C]

Hmmm lots to think about.....

I would prefer an original VW vacuum-advance Bosch 0 231 170 034 / VW 043-905-205 distributor from an old 1600DP motor - Anyone 

[Zach Gomulka]

I can appreciate a single carb for its simplicity. I absolutely loved my Zenith/010 combo, drove like a stocker but with more power. Completely trouble free. I would keep the compression under 8.5:1, I don't think high ratio rockers will be of any benefit on single port heads. An extra oil cooler, thermostatically controlled, is never a bad idea. If you're pulling the heads off I would be tempted to install 87's, helps get your compression up and allows you to unshroud the valves a little more. I would run a Porsche 356/912 gen pulley to keep the heads/cylinders cool, it also helps the heater perform better.

[Black Sheep]

when you get fed up with playing with single carb combs Lee I've got a pair of type 3 single port manifolds for sale

[Lee.C]

I can appreciate a single carb for its simplicity. I absolutely loved my Zenith/010 combo, drove like a stocker but with more power. Completely trouble free. I would keep the compression under 8.5:1, I don't think high ratio rockers will be of any benefit on single port heads. An extra oil cooler, thermostatically controlled, is never a bad idea. If you're pulling the heads off I would be tempted to install 87's, helps get your compression up and allows you to unshroud the valves a little more. I would run a Porsche 356/912 gen pulley to keep the heads/cylinders cool, it also helps the heater perform better.

Perfect Zach... You "Get It" 

I was wondering about the ratio rockers..... Not really in keeping with this motor as I would have to modify the pushrods etc....

Like I said I want to keep it "simple" and just make the most of what I have,

Anyone have any tips/advice on thermostatically controlled oil cooler.... What are other out there using

 

[Zach Gomulka]

I used a Mocal sandwich adapter between the filter and adapter. Makes for a cleaner installation.

[Lids]

I would be tempted to slip in a 74mm crank and leave the rest of the internals the same.  a little work on the heads, maybe go with a larger single carb.(believe GB ran a 1776 with a single carb in  bus engine)

[Lee.C]

Hmmmm interesting thought.......

I have heard there is a longer stroke "Stock" waterboxer/T25 crank that drops straight into a type1 case 

Anyone have any info on this 

[modnrod]

The crank out of the DJ and MV 2.1L motors (2109 wasser) has a 76mm throw. It's not a drop-in though, the case needs machining for the T4 flywheel and you need to source a T4 flywheel also to suit, the Wasser flywheel is 215mm, which won't fit without "fiddling".......a fair bit! I've got one ready for my little motor, but I have to start from scratch anyway, so machining is already happening.
The 74mm 4140 cheapy crank for a stocker SP 1600 is easy though, and probably a lot cheaper than splitting then machining the case up for a Wasser crank.
+1 for Lids idea if you're going to split the cases.

[Tourist]

Good afternoon everyone 

The 2.1 waterboxer crank is 76.4 mm stroke (I think), and you can get an 5 bolt T4 flywheel in 210mm diameter.

Apologies if I have crashed your thread Lee.

All the best,
Martin 

[Zach Gomulka]

Unless the case needs going in to, don't get in to it. It's a slippery slope... Might as well bore it, might as well stroke it, would be a waste not to throw a cam in there In fact, if the p/c are fine, re-use those as well. If not, you could easily go 87's, or if you want a little more meat in the cylinder, machine a set of thick wall 88's down to fit in the stock case register. That would give you 1679cc and 8:1 with .040" deck. With the Zenith feeding properly set up single ports, you'll have a grunty little motor that will pull your bus up any hill, and not be expensive to build or operate.

[BeetleBug]

Unless the case needs going in to, don't get in to it. It's a slippery slope... Might as well bore it, might as well stroke it, would be a waste not to throw a cam in there In fact, if the p/c are fine, re-use those as well. If not, you could easily go 87's, or if you want a little more meat in the cylinder, machine a set of thick wall 88's down to fit in the stock case register. That would give you 1679cc and 8:1 with .040" deck. With the Zenith feeding properly set up single ports, you'll have a grunty little motor that will pull your bus up any hill, and not be expensive to build or operate.

X2. Do a leak down test and let it decide your next steps. Trying to tune a worn out donkey is like fishing without a hook. Fun.. but not very effiecent. I`m runing a 1776ccm engine in my 1303 with Engle 100, original rockers, original carb that is opened up, German 009, heater boxes and a silencer from Vintage Speed. It produced 83.9hp and 144nm of torque on the JPM dyno. In my opinion that is just enough but nothing more. In a bus I would say it is not enough. I drove it close to 2000km just recently and that gave me an average of 0,69 l/mil.

-BB-

[Lee.C]

Thanks again guys.... I think Zach and Kalle are right,

I really don't want to split/machine the case etc.......

I think its all gonna be about the Heads/CR, But I will do a leak down test first....

I have just given her a little service after the trip and its running like a swiss watch so nothing will be happening for a while 

[Torben Alstrup]

Kalle´s build is quite nice, except for a "horrible" idle  The W100 does that.

Monkiboy, IF you really want to do something to get better power AND stay as much as possible with stock parts I would recommend one of my std plus set ups. I posted one of my set ups here some time ago: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993&start=80  Scroll down to VW 1600 sgl port stage 2. It idles like a stock engine, it pulls like a stock engine, only harder and wider. - You get about 400 rpm more power window compared to a stock cammed sgl. port. Peak torque can be equalled with a stock cam and matching CR., but the torque curve will peak at about 2500 - 2700 dependant on set up and decent rapidly from there. The std plus kinda flattens out and keeps pulling for quite a while. Fuel consumption is like stock to about 10% better dependant on the weight of the boot. The Stage 3 pulls about 70 hp and a wider torque band. It also requires a freer flowing airfilter than stock. Unfortunately I have no dyno sheet available to show of that one right now.

As for the centermount Zenith´s with no problems, I do think that the main reason is that people generally accepted the fact that it had to be jetted rich to run well, thus had less than optimum fuel efficincy. As for the performance, well, we can - almost- equal that with a 34 mm Solex PDSIT3 today.
If someone would manufacture a decent intake manifold with REAL manifold preheat I think a lot of the fine tuning issues with the centermount Zenith would be obsolete.

[Lee.C]

Kalle´s build is quite nice, except for a "horrible" idle  The W100 does that.

Monkiboy, IF you really want to do something to get better power AND stay as much as possible with stock parts I would recommend one of my std plus set ups. I posted one of my set ups here some time ago: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993&start=80  Scroll down to VW 1600 sgl port stage 2. It idles like a stock engine, it pulls like a stock engine, only harder and wider. - You get about 400 rpm more power window compared to a stock cammed sgl. port. Peak torque can be equalled with a stock cam and matching CR., but the torque curve will peak at about 2500 - 2700 dependant on set up and decent rapidly from there. The std plus kinda flattens out and keeps pulling for quite a while. Fuel consumption is like stock to about 10% better dependant on the weight of the boot. The Stage 3 pulls about 70 hp and a wider torque band. It also requires a freer flowing airfilter than stock. Unfortunately I have no dyno sheet available to show of that one right now.

As for the centermount Zenith´s with no problems, I do think that the main reason is that people generally accepted the fact that it had to be jetted rich to run well, thus had less than optimum fuel efficincy. As for the performance, well, we can - almost- equal that with a 34 mm Solex PDSIT3 today.
If someone would manufacture a decent intake manifold with REAL manifold preheat I think a lot of the fine tuning issues with the centermount Zenith would be obsolete.

Now this is more what I am talking about..... I need to do some reading! 

[Lee.C]

EDIT: please re-read the original post 

[Torben Alstrup]

Let me tell you a little story that might change your mind:

Back in the winter 2007/2008 I was approached by an elderly gentleman who was in the middle of restoring a 68 type 2 Westfalia camper. He had bought a 1600 sgl port longblock from a, in vintage circles, respected person in Germany, for A LOT of money. That´s where I came into the picture. He wanted me to assemble this engine to complete and start it up and do a basic adjustment on it. When he came and delivered the engineIi was quite surprised to see an engine that in my eyes was thrown together with a shovel. No details what so ever, and with cheapo gaskets or no gaskets at all. We discussed it a bit, and we soon aggreed that it had to be taken apart again for a proper assembly, or he would soon have had an oil dripping bastard hangin´out in the rear. During this conversation I persuaded him to let us do an upgrade on the engine, since I knew it was going into a heavy camper. And 46 horses are soon put to work, all of them in such a vehichle.
I took it apart and did a complete balance job, added a 2280 camshaft, corrected the deck height, massaged and detailed the heads, set CR to 8,3-1, used a US late 1600 "large" intake manifold with flange for a 34 mm Pict3 carb., and topped it off with my/TT´s Std plus bus muffler. The factory airfilter was relieved from its internals and converted to a paper element filter. We got power very close to the dyno sheet you have already seen.
Engine was delivered, the guy installed it and began to do some shorter trips around the country to test the vehichle out. After something like 3 or 4 weeks he called me one night. At this point he was VERY dissapointed with the power of the engine and practically accused me for ripping him off and performed an upgrade on his engine that did´nt do squat over stock. I was a bit on my heels as I knew the engine pulled the power I promised him, and all I could tell him was that this is what a 62 hp engine will do in such a heavy car.
Now later that summer he and his wife was going on tour along with another elderly couple in another Wesfalia bus, to Lapland, up through Norway, into Finland and down through Sweden. They were away for about 6 weeks as I recall.
Then one evenning in early septemper the phone rang. It turned out to be this same person, and I was like shit, what has happened now. But it turned out to be something completely different. He told me that they had been on this tour, and the car and engine had performed flawlessly (which I also expected it to) They had covered about 7500 km on the tour. And then it came. - He wanted to appologize for his negative attitude wrt the engines power before the tour. Because when they hit the moutains in Norway and further up, he immediately noticed that he was able to climb the hills somewhat easier compared to his friend who was running a bone stock 1600 dual port engine. On top of that he also noticed that he was driving about 1 km/l more in average than his friend did. So at this point he sort of realized that his engine actually DID produce the power he was promised. He just did´nt notice it when he was driving around "at home" because he had nothing to compare to, and the car had been sitting for so long that he had forgotten how a stock engine performed. Of course I accepted the appology.
In 2010 I did a performance upgrade on his friends bus too, as he "did´nt want to be left behind"  Now HE has the upper hand

T

[Lee.C]

Ok I get what you are saying.......

There are a few ideas in there that I have also thought of.... Like the airfilter conversion 

So I guess I could pop a cam in there 

I have been wondering about the "Stock" oil cooler though..... I know that some say it can be better to remove the original (fit a block off plate) and use the earlier fanhousing for a better overall airflow 
I do planning on fullflow/filter/external cooler......

Any thoughts on this

[Lee.C]

And then we get on to EXHAUSTS 

Whats everyones thoughts on this......