Bus Motors/1600 Single ports, Making the best of stock components!!!

[Torben Alstrup]

IMHO a regular late model fan shroud (doghouse) will do the job nicely. A venturi ring would put the system on its max performance.

Also, on such engines I prefer a thermostatic controlled external cooler. It does not have to be big. A second stock cooler placed where it can get some wind will do great. I would ditch the large oil sump. It does not aid much in cooling and it will contribute to a somewhat longer warm up period. If you absolutely want an extra sump, use the CB 1,3 quart.
I like to modify the thermostats so they do not open until about 85 degrees C. to raise the oil temps a tad in the engine. I have found that the engines keep themselves more clean on the inside because they then can "burn" a lot more of the vapors condensed in the case.
A regular 1 3/8" header will do fine. If you want something else that is tucked away, but still supports power without being loud Turbo Thomas builds the std plus (or stock style) mufflers which are similar to the vintage, only a good deal quieter.

T

[Lee.C]

This is starting to get really interesting.....

Thanks for all the input Torben...... You really seem to get where I want to go with this motor, its all about those small simple changes that make a BIG difference  

It was mainly the diameter of the header I was concerned with as I want it to be "optimal" for this small cc.......
I am pretty happy with the noise level of the single quiet pak I am currently running and it looks pretty cool too  

As for the extra oil cooler..... I have founds a BMW motor bike item that is a little bigger than a stock cooler and it has nice mounts & proper outlets etc.......

Would you use a big "HP1" style filter or a smaller "Golf" style filter 

Any more info on the thermostat mods  

[Torben Alstrup]

The golf style, actually WBX filter is large enough, since the engine doesnt rev that high. I hardly ever use HP1´s I use Mann 940/25 for normal, and 940/1 for high rpm engines.

I take the thermostat unit (the actual temperature unit) from a water thermostat and use instead of the delivered in Mocal sandwich thermostats. Older Fiat units have the right temperature window. Some Ford and most likely others too.

The motorcycle cooler sounds like its usable.

T

[DWL_Puavo]

I also second the following;
- Stock doghouse fanshroud with stock oil cooler. Maybe added venturi ring.
- Alternator instead of generator (if it isn't already)
- Fullflow with cooler and thermostat. I've been satisfied with mocal sandwiches original thermostat but "hotter one" sounds also reasonable.
- Small oil sump
- Bumping up compression and small portwork
- 1.25 rockers, you can get the geometry close with added shims under the rocker shaft depending on the rockers. With cut-to-lenght alu pushrods and lash caps it would of course be netter but maybe not worth the hassle
- If your're ever driving close to 0 degrees celsius, single-tubed manifold heater with cheap aftermarket header may be problematic. At least the heater holes must be opened.
- Some good quality hideout muffler with resonance chamber muffler. Some of those cheaper ones are LOUD.
- Lambda sensor to get the jetting just right after modifications
...and a bit more aggressive cam of course

[Lee.C]

The golf style, actually WBX filter is large enough, since the engine doesnt rev that high. I hardly ever use HP1´s I use Mann 940/25 for normal, and 940/1 for high rpm engines.

I take the thermostat unit (the actual temperature unit) from a water thermostat and use instead of the delivered in Mocal sandwich thermostats. Older Fiat units have the right temperature window. Some Ford and most likely others too.

The motorcycle cooler sounds like its usable.

T

Sorry but I have a couple more questions 

- 1: What paper airfilter element did you use for the conversion you mentioned 
- 2: What exact mocal/termostat oil plate do you use 
- 3: Oil pump.... Stock  Blueprinted 
- 4: Whats the MAXIMUM length/size of oil line adviceable in this kind of set up 
- 5: whats your choice of oil..... Grade/Brand 
- 6: Cam.... Make/type 

And any other hints and tips would be great 

[Lee.C]

One more Thought...... What would a motor like this be like A-Framing a manx or even a bug   

I am not talking across europe but a few hundred km's 

Any thoughts 

[Torben Alstrup]

Sorry but I have a couple more questions  

- 1: What paper airfilter element did you use for the conversion you mentioned  
I do not remember. I browsed the Mann ai filter catalog and found one from a light truck that suited my needs
- 2: What exact mocal/termostat oil plate do you use  
Like this: http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=25185622571&rub1=Engine&rub2=Oil%20System%2COil%20Cooling&artnr=12553a&pn=0&sort=0&all=
- 3: Oil pump.... Stock   Blueprinted  
Blueprinted 26 mm.
- 4: Whats the MAXIMUM length/size of oil line adviceable in this kind of set up  
Theoretical you can go all the way to the front and back, as long as you use lines and fittings with sufficient square. I have done it several times on beetles (with a filter pump and the Mocal. But i consider this maximum length.)
- 5: whats your choice of oil..... Grade/Brand  
- 6: Cam.... Make/type  
For these types of engines I like CB cams over most anything else. They have a variety of cams so I can choose exactly the behaviure I want. (I have done my share of trial and error in the matter)

And any other hints and tips would be great  

A framing a beetle or a buggy behind the bus wohnt be worse than haulin´a trailer. The engine will be working 90-100% of its capabilities all of the time, so you should keep an eye on oil and especially head temps. Apart from that, no problem.

[Lee.C]

THANKYOU VERY MUCH DUDE!

You have been VERY helpfull on this thread and you really seem to get what I am trying to do.....

One question you did miss though.... What oil Grade/Brand do you like to use on these type of motors 

[Torben Alstrup]

Well. I´m a big fan of Brad Penn. That´s why I sell it too ;-)
15w/40 is my preferred viscosity for street engines, unless most of the driving is done south of the Alps.
There are other brands that work well too, but the BP is about the best I have come across.

In the cheaper end I have found that Shell Rimula 15w/40 R3 or R4 along with a shot of ZDDPlus does the job quite well too. But it doesnt beat the BP in our old engines though.

T

PS. I take it that you are located in GB. If that is the case you have a brand named Morris almost in your back yard. This Morris oil has proven very good in both lubricating and especially heat dissapation. There ia an SAE 30 Classic and also a 15w/50 Classic to choose from.

[Anders]

Cool and interesting thread Lee!!

I too am in the process of building a "super stock" singe port engine and really like the simplicity of using one carb.
Does anyone have any kind of experience with a bug spray setup? They are relatively cheap and, imho, looks alot nicer than the stock carb.

[Lee.C]

Well. I´m a big fan of Brad Penn. That´s why I sell it too ;-)
15w/40 is my preferred viscosity for street engines, unless most of the driving is done south of the Alps.
There are other brands that work well too, but the BP is about the best I have come across.

In the cheaper end I have found that Shell Rimula 15w/40 R3 or R4 along with a shot of ZDDPlus does the job quite well too. But it doesnt beat the BP in our old engines though.

T

PS. I take it that you are located in GB. If that is the case you have a brand named Morris almost in your back yard. This Morris oil has proven very good in both lubricating and especially heat dissapation. There ia an SAE 30 Classic and also a 15w/50 Classic to choose from.

I'm actually based in norway

I have been using the "Classic" SAE30 for a while and I found it worked really well, I was just interested in the types of oil an experienced builder like your self use,

Thanks again for all the input 

[freakpower]

Well. I´m a big fan of Brad Penn. That´s why I sell it too ;-)
15w/40 is my preferred viscosity for street engines, unless most of the driving is done south of the Alps.
There are other brands that work well too, but the BP is about the best I have come across.

In the cheaper end I have found that Shell Rimula 15w/40 R3 or R4 along with a shot of ZDDPlus does the job quite well too. But it doesnt beat the BP in our old engines though.

T

PS. I take it that you are located in GB. If that is the case you have a brand named Morris almost in your back yard. This Morris oil has proven very good in both lubricating and especially heat dissapation. There ia an SAE 30 Classic and also a 15w/50 Classic to choose from.

I'm actually based in norway

I have been using the "Classic" SAE30 for a while and I found it worked really well, I was just interested in the types of oil an experienced builder like your self use,

Thanks again for all the input 

We have Joe Gibbs HR-3 Full Synthetic 15W-50 on stock in Oslo.
Quality oil with high level of Zinc Dithio Phosphate.
Same oil that is labeled Joe Gibbs DT 50 - Air Cooled High Zinc Synthetic 15W50, in the States
How would that oil fit this engine?

[Lee.C]

Hmmmm I think I'll stay with the SAE30 for now as I have used it for a while.....

Might make the swap after the "Re-build" 

[Torben Alstrup]

We have Joe Gibbs HR-3 Full Synthetic 15W-50 on stock in Oslo.
Quality oil with high level of Zinc Dithio Phosphate.
Same oil that is labeled Joe Gibbs DT 50 - Air Cooled High Zinc Synthetic 15W50, in the States
How would that oil fit this engine?

That oil works VERY well in type 4 engines. Whether there are the same advantages in type 1 engines I do not know. Theoretically it should be about the same.

T

[Lee.C]

I do have just ONE more question..... So thanks in advance 

I have been wonder how people would go about plumbing all this oil system..... With a filter, the Thermo plate and a extra cooler 

By this I really mean where does the oil go first after it exits the pump......

[Torben Alstrup]

To the filter

T

[Lee.C]

Right again I know this is probably silly but I want to be 100% sure......

So it goes from the pump to the filter and then back to the case and the other two outlets on the sandwich plate are plumbed to the cooler..... Right?

Its just that I've never used the sandwich plate type set up before and I want to do it right 

[Jesse/DVK]

That's how it work yes.

On my car

[Lee.C]

That's how it work yes.

On my car

Cool I just wanted to be 100% sure 

I have been having one more thought about this kind of motor.....

Would it be more "Efficient" to run an Electric Fuel Pump  I have had a few problems over the years with "Stock" mechanical pumps 

[nicolas]

i had a 2276 with an FK8, 48dells, well over 6800 rpms, stock fuel pump (original and newer repp), no issues. i also used a electric pump and the only benefit from the later is that the engine doesn't need to 'fill up' on fuel first if it stays still for a longer time.

[Lee.C]

Yeah I know there are good for most situations and the only reason I asked is because "Fuel Pumps" have been the cause of a couple of breakdowns for me..... Just thinking out loud really 

[Lee.C]

I have also been wondering what was ment by this Torben 

" if someone would manufacture a decent intake manifold with REAL manifold preheat"

Can you describe the idea Single carb manifold please 

[Lee.C]

when you get fed up with playing with single carb combs Lee I've got a pair of type 3 single port manifolds for sale

drop me a pm 

[Torben Alstrup]

I have also been wondering what was ment by this Torben  

" if someone would manufacture a decent intake manifold with REAL manifold preheat"

Can you describe the idea Single carb manifold please  

The comment was primarily  in relation to the centermount NDIX carb. But in general, one of the problems with centermount carburettors, stock, Bugspray, Progressive, NDIX or IDF are that the manifold preheat is insufficient to our climate. Some time ago I was visiting Art Traen (ACE) and John Connolly (ACN)  Especially Art and his crew have a vast knowledge in how to make carburettors work in the most weired set ups, limited induction race classes and of course street engines too.  (But John aint lost out the back of a wagon either) We discussed many things, among that stock carb improvements, (That was about the only subject where I was able to teach them something   Anyway Art taught me a few things, and verified some other issues that I had been puzzling with. And now where the Kadron carbs are getting obsolete, some of this knowledge may come in handy as some people just do not like, cannot work with or simply do not want multiple throat carburettors.

In fact, due to this visit I am now able to make a center mount IDF work on a VW engine. Something I for one have been unable to for 20 years. And like I menthioned above, decent/correct/sufficient manifold heating is on of the steps to make it work properly.

T
PS. Art has sold the VW part of his business to Colton and his brother and is now named Blackline Racing. Just to clear up any misunderstandings.

[Lee.C]

Hmmmm interesting.....

I'll be honest one of the reasons I like the single solex is due to the VERY efficient "Auto-choke"..... I know type3's have dual carbs and an auto choke so I have been thinking alot more about these carbs/set-ups

Which is why I bumped this thread..... Any thoughts???

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,13878.0.html

[Torben Alstrup]

There are also the 34 mm Solex that CB sells. It is originally the carbs used on the SP1. They work quite well, but it takes a little trial and error to get the cold start enrichment to work properly. They come with 22 mm venturies, so that is the first point of attention. Stock 32 and bus 34mm Solex venturies fit right in, so an old worn out set of those can easily act as part locator. They can handle up to 28 mm venturies and are good for just over 90 hp when they are exploited 100% Most will hit the wall around 85 hp.
The linkage is, - well, its there, and it works, but it is kinda wimpy and one of the things I like to replace with someting better. They are slightly less sensetive to needing stacks compared to the stock 32´s (Dont ask me why, it just is so) But they still mix better when a 30-60 mm stack is added, especially on the sgl. port manifolds, most likely because these manifolds are SHORT! I´m sure if one manufactured longer ones they would act about as with dual port maniflds.

In short, I like them, and have them on the shelf, because I feel that it is a nice little set of carbs for very decent money. Dual carbs and a decent 4-1 header WILL always be the easy route to the first 15ish hp. After that you still need to dig into the engine to gain both torque and power.

T

[Lee.C]

Again thanks for the input..... Superb as always, I know I "should" go with twin carbs but..... 

I did want to ask if you have a link to a cam that you like to use or maybe just the Spec's  Does JPM do one for this kinda motor 

Again thanks in advance.... You have been VERY informative 

[Torben Alstrup]

Just go to CB´s website, or order it from me 

i understand. - i find it fun to make power with these set ups, especially because everyone else cries "dual carbs" before I even get started.

T

[modnrod]

Just go to CB´s website, or order it from me 

i understand. - i find it fun to make power with these set ups, especially because everyone else cries "dual carbs" before I even get started.

T

I find it fun too. I just love the look of confusion on peoples faces when they see a single carb under the engine lid after a run........

I tried to get the exact cam I wanted for this style of motor, and ended up going with a custom grind that is within 3 degrees at .050" of what I wanted. The specs you may be interested in perhaps, considering it's for this type of motor?

==========
Here's what I think would be the perfect cam for what you're doing. Excellent throttle response and relatively smooth idle, but still a heathy sound. It's a bit bigger than what you originally wanted, but I think yuo'd be really happy with this combo:



Part Number:  CUSTOM
 
Grind Number:  270-64F
 
Intake Duration (gross):  270
 
Exhaust Duration (gross):  264
 
Intake Duration (.050”):  234
 
Exhaust Duration (.050”):  228
 
Intake Valve Lift*:  .462" (.330" lobe)
 
Exhaust Valve Lift*:  .434" (.310" lobe)
 
Lobe Separation:  111
 
Intake Valve Lash:  .004"
 
Exhaust Valve Lash:   .006"
 
RPM Range:
 1800-4500+
 
*Based on 1.4 Rocker Arm Ratio 
 

$115 custom ground to order.

 
Kevin Cantrell
Sales & Engineering
Schneider Racing Cams
619-297-0227===========

Might be worth a try maybe Torben, you'll have your next engine built a LONG time before I finish mine! lol

[Lee.C]

Just go to CB´s website, or order it from me 

i understand. - i find it fun to make power with these set ups, especially because everyone else cries "dual carbs" before I even get started.

T

Just a thought... Would it be possible for you to "Prep" a pair of 1600sp heads (ports/valve seats/chambers/flycut/etc) for this kind of motor 

Would you need MY heads or do you have "Stock" of heads 

It would be nice to buy pair of properly Prepared/machined/ready to go heads...... oh and a Cam