HiPo Engine Parts - Life span?

[stretch]

I'm in the process of re-building my 2332cc street / strip motor.

When I stripped it down it got my thinking about the life span of various parts within a breathed upon VW motor.  Obviously things like bearings, valve springs, etc have a life span, but, what about other parts?  Does the oil pressure relief valve spring have a shelf life?  What about head studs, with higher than stock compression ratios & much higher revs do these need changing out on a regular basis?

My engine has been built for 5 years & it's the 1st time it's been apart, it hasn't done that many street miles, but, has been driven fairly hard on the strip over those 5 years.  I was surprised to find the cam was knackered when I split the block, the lobes had pitted quite badly, although the lifters looked brand new.  (I thought that lifters were prone to pitting)?  It had also just started to pick up on the rear main bearing.  I was lucky that the crank journal just needed a polish (it's now 0.0005" undersize on the journal or 1/2 a thou).  Why would this happen?  I had no loss of oil pressure (according to the gauge in the car).  I understand it's not just about oil pressure, it's volume that's important.  Is there anything I need to check for in the case (apart from a blockage in the oil gallery) to ensure this doesn't happen again?

[BeetleBug]

I'm in the process of re-building my 2332cc street / strip motor.

When I stripped it down it got my thinking about the life span of various parts within a breathed upon VW motor.  Obviously things like bearings, valve springs, etc have a life span, but, what about other parts?  Does the oil pressure relief valve spring have a shelf life?  What about head studs, with higher than stock compression ratios & much higher revs do these need changing out on a regular basis?

My engine has been built for 5 years & it's the 1st time it's been apart, it hasn't done that many street miles, but, has been driven fairly hard on the strip over those 5 years.  I was surprised to find the cam was knackered when I split the block, the lobes had pitted quite badly, although the lifters looked brand new.  (I thought that lifters were prone to pitting)?  It had also just started to pick up on the rear main bearing.  I was lucky that the crank journal just needed a polish (it's now 0.0005" undersize on the journal or 1/2 a thou).  Why would this happen?  I had no loss of oil pressure (according to the gauge in the car).  I understand it's not just about oil pressure, it's volume that's important.  Is there anything I need to check for in the case (apart from a blockage in the oil gallery) to ensure this doesn't happen again?

I`m a bit suprised over the fact that you was suprised to find a knackered cam and lifters after 5 years.

[Erlend / bug66]

I'm in the process of re-building my 2332cc street / strip motor.

When I stripped it down it got my thinking about the life span of various parts within a breathed upon VW motor.  Obviously things like bearings, valve springs, etc have a life span, but, what about other parts?  Does the oil pressure relief valve spring have a shelf life?  What about head studs, with higher than stock compression ratios & much higher revs do these need changing out on a regular basis?

My engine has been built for 5 years & it's the 1st time it's been apart, it hasn't done that many street miles, but, has been driven fairly hard on the strip over those 5 years.  I was surprised to find the cam was knackered when I split the block, the lobes had pitted quite badly, although the lifters looked brand new.  (I thought that lifters were prone to pitting)?  It had also just started to pick up on the rear main bearing.  I was lucky that the crank journal just needed a polish (it's now 0.0005" undersize on the journal or 1/2 a thou).  Why would this happen?  I had no loss of oil pressure (according to the gauge in the car).  I understand it's not just about oil pressure, it's volume that's important.  Is there anything I need to check for in the case (apart from a blockage in the oil gallery) to ensure this doesn't happen again?

I`m a bit suprised over the fact that you was suprised to find a knackered cam and lifters after 5 years.

I was pleasantly suprised to find a good cam and lifters after 1,5years and maybe 2000km...

[stretch]

I`m a bit suprised over the fact that you was suprised to find a knackered cam and lifters after 5 years.
[/quote]

Really?  What would you consider the life span of a camshaft in a 180bhp (roughly) VW engine?

[BeetleBug]

Really?  What would you consider the life span of a camshaft in a 180bhp (roughly) VW engine?

Yes really. What cam and lifters did you use and how often did you check the valve springs?

[stretch]

Cam is a CB2289 (FK87 near as damn it).  Lifters are / were Scat.

What you mean by check the valve springs?  Check the pressures on a valve spring tool?  If so, they were checked to see if any were 'sad' when the heads were installed 5 years ago.  Not been checked since.  I planned to swap out the valve springs every year & I didn't.  I take it I was lucky to get away without any further problems then?

The motor is getting a full rebuild, back to an empty case.  How often would you suggest components are checked / replaced?  (I appreciate this is a difficult question).

[BeetleBug]

Cam is a CB2289 (FK87 near as damn it).  Lifters are / were Scat.

What you mean by check the valve springs?  Check the pressures on a valve spring tool?  If so, they were checked to see if any were 'sad' when the heads were installed 5 years ago.  Not been checked since.  I planned to swap out the valve springs every year & I didn't.  I take it I was lucky to get away without any further problems then?

The motor is getting a full rebuild, back to an empty case.  How often would you suggest components are checked / replaced?  (I appreciate this is a difficult question).

Thanks. Lucky or not is not possible to answer. You used a cam and lifter combination that many have used before you. Cheap parts. On top of this you did not change your valve springs. If I had to guess I would say your cam and lifters was gone a while back.

Use a cam and lifter combo that is made for our engines and change or at least check your springs every season. Do not expect cheap parts to last because you will only get frustrated when you realise that they dont.

[mg]

We use some of the modern coatings and treatments to extend the lifespan of engine parts.

After many years of use (mostly road racing) I had my engine builder freshen up the motor. (3.6 300rwhp)
A few extra precautions we took on this recently refreshed air cooled 911 race engine.

Rebuilding and resurfacing the rockers and kissing the used cams and then having the cams reparkerizing.
A new set of valve springs were sent out for a Cryo-Rem treatment, about $150.
We replaced all the used Valves as they had already been cut once.   

A heat barrier treatment was used on the piston tops and the face of the valves.
In the past we had the piston sides Teflon coated.
Carrillo got $120 to rebuild each rod.

[stretch]

Cheers Kalle.   

Mike, how much extra 'life' do you expect from the components after having all that work done to them?

[richie]

Hi Stretch

after 5 years I would be looking at everything carefully, I would use new rods bolts, gland nut, valve springs, maybe valves[depending on how many passes] and even pistons.
As for the rear main, not enough end play, sitting on the clutch to long, starting the engine with the clutch pedal down, some debris from the cam failure, dirty oil, not enough crank to bearing clearance when new, probably more but there's a few possibilities. Pressuming the cam has been knackered for a while your passes this year were even better

cheers Richie

[stretch]

Richie, thanks for that, you've just scared me half to death !!  ;-)  I planned on rod bolts & valve springs, but, hadn't considered the gland nut or pistons.   Hmmmm.   Definitely food for thought.

As for sitting on the clutch for too long, I bet that has an impact on my motor, I'm always on the clutch on the road, it's a habit I'll have to get out of.  I thought it was flanged crank engines that suffer with too much 'riding the clutch'.

It's great to get good advise,  this place rocks.   

[mg]

Mike, how much extra 'life' do you expect from the components after having all that work done to them?

I was not clear.
Actually when I had the stock 3.6 aircooled 911 engine rebuilt by my buddy Vic to race specs 10 years ago we used all the coatings and treatments mentioned.
The engine ran great the entire time, but after all that track abuse it was ready for a refresh.
The motor in action.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4u-Jg4jssw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/N4u-Jg4jssw</a>

Vic built the engine 10 years ago too.
Fwiw in the mid 80s Vic trained for 4 years at the Porsche factory and stayed on building 962 motors.
One of his 962 engines came in 2nd place at LeMans 24 hours.
A couple months before the Lemans second place finish he had his Karmann Ghia featured by RK in HVWs.
Vic still wrenches on old Porsches and VWs at his shop in Prescott Az.
Here is his customer/friend 962, its the last of the air cooled single turbo 962s being prepped for vintage racing.
It got 4th place Daytona 24 hour in 91 or 92?
After 10 years of track time here is what my engine builder said about the condition of the engine
............................................................
Hi Mike,

I got your engine apart.  I started on it yesterday.  The internals look great!!!!  Except for a few rocker arms.  The cams look perfect.  See the pics below.
I sent these pics to John Dougherty to see what he recommends, I will let you know.  

The bearings are excellent, except the thrust bearing has some wear so they will need replacing.  For a street motor I would leave them, but not for race.  Valve guides are excellent!  You will need new valves though, I don't want to regrind these originals that were already reground.  The piston rings look great, nicely broken in.  I think I will leave them, then you can go for it and not have to break in new ones.  The second compression ring is only half way broken in.  

The valve springs look great but I think they should be replaced and new AASCO (that is what they are) springs sent out for the same Cryo-Rem treatment.  The set of springs is $385 and the Cryo-Rem about $150.    

I have contacted Carrillo about what to do with the rods, I'll let you know.

So basically you will need just common rebuild parts.  I am quite impressed with the motor!

Vic

[Zach Gomulka]

Small world... Prescott is my hometown, I'm up there quite often. Does Vic have a shop?

[mg]

Small world... Prescott is my hometown, I'm up there quite often. Does Vic have a shop?

Yes its called Vic's workshop.
But he is off the radar, just his hobby now and works on what interests him.
Vic has a few cool old VWs still.
He is restoring two Porsches for me now.
More on Vic...
http://johnstraub.blogspot.com/2012/02/porsche-944-gtr-003-time-withvic-ofner.html

[H67bug]

Stretch

Can you say how many miles you covered in 5 years? Guess the miles matter more than time apart from springs under pressure?

[stretch]

Heydon, it's difficult to say because the engine was used in 2 different cars.  Not that many though, probably between 1000 - 2000 miles.

Mike, those engine components look like new !!!  You gotta be impressed by that.  Oh and that 962 is beautiful, what a lovely toy.   

[richie]

Stretch,

 I would also think about getting the crank magna fluxed to see if it has any cracks in it just to be sure

cheers Richie

[stretch]

Richie, do you know who offers that service?  I saw Pete magnaflux a ring & pinion a few years ago.

Where do they crack if they are going to go?

[H67bug]

Heydon, it's difficult to say because the engine was used in 2 different cars.  Not that many though, probably between 1000 - 2000 miles.

A little like you, I always feel that the engines ought to last a little longer than that although they often do we just don't check them for wear.

 It is quite amusing trying to explain to a non petrol head , my wife included, why we often pay so much per mile for a performance vw road engine and how when they fail it is just accepted as parts failure and no one is responsible. :-)

[richie]

Richie, do you know who offers that service?  I saw Pete magnaflux a ring & pinion a few years ago.

Where do they crack if they are going to go?

I have never had one done in the UK so don't know that, but Pete would be a good starting point to ask.

I cant say 100% as someone will have always broke one in a different place, but around the center main on what I have seen


cheers Richie

[Neil Davies]

Stretch, see if Matt Walker knows anyone - I'm sure he'll have a contact!

[Worm]

Press Cut.

[mg]

Press Cut.

I told my LA buddy it is Press Cut, for the same reason his home town is pronounced Whittier not Whitey'er.   

[Zach Gomulka]

Preskitt, like biscut!

[mg]

Preskitt, like biscut!

funny so far from Press Scott, thank you.