getting most out of my heads

[Peter]

Hi,
after driving aroud for some time, I feel the urge to change something about my engine again...
Cam is currently an fk8, but its way too boring for my liking..
So... I have cb wedgeport heads, 2276, etc...
What cam do you think would get the most out of my heads?
I want to increase compression to the max possible with euro 98 pump gas ( thinking about 12/1 )
I know the rep the fk4x has, but this is maybe no problem for an alu case?
thinking in the range of fk89, fk47 ?
I'd like to get in the area of 100 hp/l ( i want to squeeze everything possible out of my IDA's)
any suggestions?

[BeetleBug]

Hi,
after driving aroud for some time, I feel the urge to change something about my engine again...
Cam is currently an fk8, but its way too boring for my liking..
So... I have cb wedgeport heads, 2276, etc...
What cam do you think would get the most out of my heads?
I want to increase compression to the max possible with euro 98 pump gas ( thinking about 12/1 )
I know the rep the fk4x has, but this is maybe no problem for an alu case?
thinking in the range of fk89, fk47 ?
I'd like to get in the area of 100 hp/l ( i want to squeeze everything possible out of my IDA's)
any suggestions?

My suggestion:

http://performancetrends.com/Engine-Analyzer-Pro.htm

[Peter]

Thanks, BB,
tried the demo version a long time ago,
but i couldnt figure out the information for the head file...
 

[BeetleBug]

It is all in the heads and combo. My experience tell me that those heads need a lot of cam and compression to deliever and I would choose a JPM cam or a FK89/FK91 or perhaps a Web 86C. The FK47 will brake your wallet but it is a great driving cam... for a little while. I would also focus on the intake length and manifolds in combination with the exhaust. You also got to be ready to pay the price since it will not be a go everywhere anytime engine. Match the gear ratios and you can go really fast. All this said, 227 - 230 hp from Wedgeports is not easy.

Best rgs
BB

[Peter]

Hey BB,
the first cam i had was an 86c, but the compression was too low (9.5/1) and it lost its lobes
so i want to try something different now..
what i like about the JPM cams is the lower springrate you can run, but it will leave a big hole in my wallet
I d like it to be a go anywhere engine still, i guess i ll have to compromise

[BeetleBug]

I d like it to be a go anywhere engine still, i guess i ll have to compromise

No you do not have to compromise. Give it a 40-50hp shot of nitrous and it will bring a big smile on your face.

[Torben Alstrup]

Hey BB,
the first cam i had was an 86c, but the compression was too low (9.5/1) and it lost its lobes

I have heard that before. But it puzzles me, as I have NEVER lost a Web cam. i suspect poor match of lifters to cam and maybe a bad break in to top it off.

The 86C and Wedgies along with 11-1 CR is KILLER for a dual purpose engine. It doesnt pull super high hp numbers, typically just shy of 200 hp. but the torque....... 
Even along with an FK89 or 47 you will be hard pressed to see more than about 215-217 hp. They simply do not support much more than that. And then the engine would´nt be that nice on the street, except for saturday night specials maybe.
But Raptor cams are nice 
T

[benlawrence]

Hey BB,
the first cam i had was an 86c, but the compression was too low (9.5/1) and it lost its lobes

I have heard that before. But it puzzles me, as I have NEVER lost a Web cam. i suspect poor match of lifters to cam and maybe a bad break in to top it off.

The 86C and Wedgies along with 11-1 CR is KILLER for a dual purpose engine. It doesnt pull super high hp numbers, typically just shy of 200 hp. but the torque....... 
Even along with an FK89 or 47 you will be hard pressed to see more than about 215-217 hp. They simply do not support much more than that. And then the engine would´nt be that nice on the street, except for saturday night specials maybe.
But Raptor cams are nice 
T

I agree, my stock wedgeports with an 86c an 10.5-1 is a great combo, on the street its not too bad although a little more jetting work would make it nicer, with 37mm vents it was awesome on the street but lacked top end, with 42's it just keeps going, good enough to run 12's all day long and drive home, have run it all season and a few street miles, hasnt got flat yet!!
Last time it dyno'd at 185bhp, but had to quit at 6200 (where the power was still climbing) due to a fuel issue, will be back in the spring to get the final number, but i would say 190bhp will be it all done. A nice combo that really pulls hard.

[Peter]

I had tool steel lifters at that time,
and still lost the lobes... the break in.. i didnt really do it because i heard it was not needed..
I did have efi at that time, with an untuned ecu, so i had to crank it quite a lot before it actually started...
maybe thats where it went wrong, or maybe really bad oil? i think i used castrol gtx, which is not optimal...
Torben, i remember you said some time ago you could run 12/1 with an 87 and 13/1 with a 89 on pump gas?
Is that correct? I dont remember the actual numbers...
I was thinking of getting another cam and later maybe the heads, but i guess thats a bit the other way around (not like adapting the cam for the heads you have)

[Erlend / bug66]

86c, 1,4 rockers, 11-1, 42/37 wedgies, short (really short) manifold, IDA with 40 vents. 1915cc. Good power

[richie]

Peter

what gear ratios etc do you have? if you make the engine more radical they will become even more important, and some car weight saving would help as well, a heavy tall geared overcamed VW wont be any fun at all.
Flycutting the heads to get compression up will be a double winner as the flycut gets the valves unshrouded quicker and they will flow better, are they out of the box right now? as a good valve job and some minor work will see good improvements as well.

If you really want it to the max then high 11s compression wise would wake it up, then some Ti valves, aluminium pushrods and with some CB650 springs I would use a FK48 or 89, it will go to 8000rpm+ in my experience so you will need good components throughout the engine for sure.
We saw ET gains with good match ported manifolds compared to the ones supplied with the heads and a good header as well, but it will be more like a race car then

cheers Richie

[dangerous]

Start by porting the manifolds so the minimum cross sectional area is at the seat throat.
It is easier to do with short manifolds, but I have cut a few 'talls' in half to do the job properly.
Should be a gradual taper top to bottom.
You might like to weld the outside of the manifolds, (depending on what casting they are),
so that they are not too thin.
Some brands are nice and thick so will not need the weld.

"cam and compression" are sure fire ways to get more,
but you will still be limited by the relationship between engine capacity and the minimum cross sectional area.

[benlawrence]

I had tool steel lifters at that time,
and still lost the lobes... the break in.. i didnt really do it because i heard it was not needed..
I did have efi at that time, with an untuned ecu, so i had to crank it quite a lot before it actually started...
maybe thats where it went wrong, or maybe really bad oil? i think i used castrol gtx, which is not optimal...

Theres your problem right there, i had an fk8 wipe out after using that oil, i learned the hard way first time round, i have since used millers classic performance with high zinc content, cooler running and havnt had a lifter/cam wear issue since. on both fk8 engine and with the 86c and jpm dual springs.

[neil68]

On my 2332 cc street/strip Beetle, VW-size dual springs CB 650, (heavy stock Beetle 2,030 lb with driver) I've experimented with the following camshafts with CR up to 10.7:1:

Engle FK8:  very smooth in city driving and decent times at the drag strip;
Web 86C:  also very smooth driving, and really came alive at the track-low 13's in 1/4-mile with the odd 12.9;
Web 226:  not a good camshaft at all...short experiment only, very harsh on the valve train;
Web 251:  no improvement...heads and CR probably too low to take advantage;
Raptor 06908:  274 degrees (at 0.050") and 0.425" cam lift (0.599" lift with Scat 1.41:1 rockers)...custom grind by Johannes specifically for my Beetle's weight and drag radials; 12.6 seconds at 106 MPH in quarter mile with no burnout and lots of tire pressure (might try hooking up better in the future, but being careful with the Type 1 transmission for now).

Of all these camshafts, the two that provided the best acceleration, were the Web 86C and the Raptor 06908.  My CR is still too low for the Raptor cam, so I might bump it up above 11:1 to take better advantage.

[Erlend / bug66]

These are mye wedgeport intake manifolds: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,731.msg287476.html#msg287476

Nice large internal diameter

[bedjo78]

just installed CB 2300 ... unexpected to get that kind of grind.... from 3000-8000rpm was a blast. staged @6000 and shift 8000 

[Jeff68]

My $0.02.....If you have the money and don't have the know how to do head work / porting work yourself....Contact a good head porter and discuss with him what your goals are and tell him what you have (car, heads, cam ect) versus what you want.  Kind of like What Neil did. This takes the guesswork out and will give you a proven combination thst will work the way you want it to. Otherwise yoy will going with trial and error which is fun and a learning experience to get there but may be cheaper.....

[Peter]

The beetle is a just 68 without bumpers,
dont know yet how heavy it really is..
The heads are cut allready to 56 cc,
I cleaned up the ports and chambers a bit, but for the rest they are out of the box,
I did install the cb650 springs a little while ago..
The gearbox for now is a stock type 3 IRS,
but I have a rancho box in my garage(still stock gears : 4.12 r/p and 3.78 1st) that i could have rebuilt with shorter 3rd and 4th.
(i just use the stock one until it breaks)
I liike to try things myself, but I understand its not always the best way..
an idea about the manifolds... cant i just cut them and weld an 'ear' instead of using the flange part?
that would seem more easy to me? or maybe they get too wide higher up...

thanks a lot everybody for the advice allready!

[pantse1]

Hi,

I have a 2276 engine with wedgeports and Raptor cam. It made 201hp/6300rpm and 240nm/5500rpm (over 200nm after 3000rpm) on rolling dyno, with belt and muffler. Very easy to drive. Manifolds are GB590.

Call to Johannes 

[spanners]

Peter, i recon the Web 86c is bang on for you for street use, just be sure to use iron lifters on it, tho if youve had a lifter bush conversion done for lightweight lifters, choice is limited now,  i use this cam in my 2.5 circuit wasser just for the torque performance alone, your stock gearbox ratios and only four gears also limit your choice, oil choice has never been better with many new high zinc performance oils out just now, prices also coming down due to all the competition, i dont know why, but the 86c has a exhaust note ive not noticed with other cams, i run mine with Scat lightweight lifters and wont change..

[LGK]

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] Hello Peter,

One of my French customers just picked up today his freshly new built 2213CC BERG-engine i built and had on the dyno yesterday.

Some specs;

40 x 37 Valves  / Original VW 040 castings,rewelded,oval shaped intakes,HEMI-CUT chambers.
GENE-BERG manifolds ported top to head cross-section calculated and respected!
Squish-modified mahle pistons to match the "hemi-cut chamber" getting compression to 10.04/1
Single OTEVA springs installed at ONLY 100KG over the nose
1.54 GENE-BERG rockers
RAPTOR camshaft custom grinded/split duration.Max lift 15mm lift @valve
ALU pushrods
ALUMEC retainers by JPM
48IDA's with 40mm RAPTOR venturies topped of with JPM-stacks
Python exhaust tuned to lenght+cone insert ,all matched to best overal performance.
Flamethrower coil+ignitor II with Bosch 009.

the numbers all WITH FANBELT AND MUFFLER:

197Hp@6300rpm

200Nm @2250rpm
220Nm@3500rpm
266Nm@4230rpm
250Nm@5000rpm
235Nm@5500rpm
220Nm@6000rpm
210Nm@6500rpm

Test where done at only 90% full throttle,being modest with the rpm's at max 6500,curve still climbing...
 This is a 215Hp /275Nm Powerplant at the CRANKSHAFT.

Camshafts in stock
Thanks to JPM and Alex for the patience and the loyalty.

Have a nice evening folks!

Regards Steve
www.stevesvwshop.be

[BeetleBug]

WOW!

[steve_pugh]

I had tool steel lifters at that time,
and still lost the lobes... the break in.. i didnt really do it because i heard it was not needed..
I did have efi at that time, with an untuned ecu, so i had to crank it quite a lot before it actually started...
maybe thats where it went wrong, or maybe really bad oil? i think i used castrol gtx, which is not optimal...

Theres your problem right there, i had an fk8 wipe out after using that oil, i learned the hard way first time round, i have since used millers classic performance with high zinc content, cooler running and havnt had a lifter/cam wear issue since. on both fk8 engine and with the 86c and jpm dual springs.

Is that a semi synthetic oil?     Or this stuff:
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductMobileDisplay?catalogId=10151&storeId=10001&productId=898077&categoryId=165581&langId=-1