What's the record 60ft in a "normal" NA beetle?

[Speed-demon]

Have been giving some thoughts to rear suspension setups (torsion spring load, shock absorber setups etc) lately.

What is the record 60 ft time in a "normal" street driveable beetle, with a "normal" NA engine? In a "normal" full body (not extremely light) car? And what was the setup?

I have done mid 1,6s in a car that weighs 840 kgs with driver (resulting in a best 1/4 time of 12,23). 197 NA hp (conservative dyno). M&H DOT 205/65/15 tires, Jaycee torsion spring plates, JayCee racing torsion spring plate retainers, 30mm torsion spring, Swing axle, Konis modiefied in Finland.

What is achieveable? In what setup?

BR

Jens Kristian, Norway

[BeetleBug]

Jens,

Go to the "all-time top racers" and take a look for yourselves. There you will find the timeslips for some of the fastest cars in Europe/World. Click on the ET to see the timeslip.

-BB-

[Udo]

1,26 would be a good 60 feet on N/A car    i know Pat from cb has done it with a race car

1,4.. would be good in a street car with slicks

Udo

[JS]

I think my best is a 1,48 on DOTs. You've seen my car so you have an idea. Nothing "exotic" in the suspension department.

[BeetleBug]

MH DOT 215 on my car, much the same set up as you Jens. My best is 1.44 and I have never managed to copy that again. A good start is 1.47 - 1.50 but then again I`m a turbo guy so I have the power I need in order to catch up     

-BB-

[Jesse/DVK]

So what did you guys do to the suspension? 

[NoBars]

My best 60 on DOTs is 1.48, on motor. 1750 pounds.

[Udo]

So what did you guys do to the suspension?  

We only had 30mm torrosion bars . but you need a good bar for the frame horns . we killed some gearboxes because we only had käfer cup bars...
Running 1,5 it was ok but from 1,4 on the gearbox cracked .This was what we had in our black 67 .I my projekt car has a stronger bar .
Udo

[Jesse/DVK]

Which bars do you mean Udo? I have a Berg traction bar and midmount installed on my car.

[Erlend / bug66]

Solid trans mount, midmount and some sort of trussbar / triangle bar usually does the job.

[Mike Lawless]

"Normal" street car
"Normal" NA engine.
Terms subject to interpretation for certain.

A lot of guys have pulled off short times in the 1.4 range. I know of one who is consistently in the 1.3s with a "street legal" car.

If you're doing 1.6 in a 12 second car, you're doing pretty good.

[BeetleBug]

I`m a bit suprised that no one have mentioned clutch control. My biggest improvement on my 60ft did come from how I set up my clutch and nothing else. It was not before I got the balance right between grip and clutch that I managed to get what I call a proper 60ft, in other words below 1.50. It is all about the balance in order to prevent bogging. I take it for granted that the suspension is properly done and that you use suitable tires for the job. Having just enough clutch also help saving your gearbox = money saved.

-BB-

[Udo]

Which bars do you mean Udo? I have a Berg traction bar and midmount installed on my car.

on this picture you can see the aluminium braket under the rear window. and from there with a little angle down to the bugpack rear mount . That makes it very strong

Udo

[Erlend / bug66]

What will give you the best ET, too much or not enough clutch?

[BeetleBug]

What will give you the best ET, too much or not enough clutch?

Neither. Too much and you will either spin your tires or bog. Most likely bog at a prepped strip with DOT or slicks unless you have an engine that has way more hp than usual. Not enough and you will experience slip. Good for your gearbox but not for your clutch, flywheel and ET

[Speed-demon]

"Normal" street car
"Normal" NA engine.
Terms subject to interpretation for certain.

A lot of guys have pulled off short times in the 1.4 range. I know of one who is consistently in the 1.3s with a "street legal" car.

If you're doing 1.6 in a 12 second car, you're doing pretty good.

"Normal" street car for me is a full steel bodied pan chassie car weighing 700-750 kg+driver
"Normal" NA engine is an engine pretty much everone can build with mostly off the shelf parts. Typically a 2,3 liter with 220-230 hp.
Using dot slicks and safe street setup, which for me means that the tranny can not have a spool.
What transaxle,  rear end and clutch  setup would it take to run such a car in the 1,4/1,5s if at all possible?
Unfortunately I have lost my notes regarding the gears in my gearbox.

Jens K

[Mike Lawless]

I think once you get into the 1.5 second zone in the 60 foot with a stock weight car, you are "Tickling the Tail of the Dragon" with the trans.

With a safe street set-up on a type 1 trans....you should learn to either be happy with 1.6 short times, or stock up on trans cases and ring & pinions. Even so, it'll need a new ring & pinion after about 30-40 runs if you push it hard.

You'll need about as low a first gear as can fit, (3.88 X 4.25) and a high gear that will get you through the traps at the desired RPM

A soft clutch will be your friend. Better to slip a bit than hook up and break stuff

Otherwise, install a type 2 trans and let 'er rip! A lot of money up front, but much less expensive over the long run.

[Udo]

I think once you get into the 1.5 second zone in the 60 foot with a stock weight car, you are "Tickling the Tail of the Dragon" with the trans.

With a safe street set-up on a type 1 trans....you should learn to either be happy with 1.6 short times, or stock up on trans cases and ring & pinions. Even so, it'll need a new ring & pinion after about 30-40 runs if you push it hard.

You'll need about as low a first gear as can fit, (3.88 X 4.25) and a high gear that will get you through the traps at the desired RPM

A soft clutch will be your friend. Better to slip a bit than hook up and break stuff

Otherwise, install a type 2 trans and let 'er rip! A lot of money up front, but much less expensive over the long run.

That is right and keep DOT's , no slicks

Udo

[Jesse/DVK]

What do you guys mean by fitting a soft clutch? Stag1 kennedy instead of stage 2? Or different discs?

Trying to learn here as Im not happy with my 1.9 sec 60ft

[Mike Lawless]

What do you guys mean by fitting a soft clutch? Stag1 kennedy instead of stage 2? Or different discs?

Trying to learn here as Im not happy with my 1.9 sec 60ft

A soft clutch means using the minimum rated clutch pressure plate to do the job. It could mean trying different discs as well. It's no longer a "buy it and bolt it on" world for VWs. In any case, to extract the best performance, it's a lot of trial and error testing these days.
Unfortunately, that choice has been complicated in recent years. The Kennedy stage 1 you buy today just won't hold as well as a stage one from five or six years ago. These kinds of quality control issues puts more pressure on buyer to get educated on how to set things up. In most cases, it also causes the buyer to spend more time and money.

You can certainly "over clutch" which many guys do, but there's risk in that. Risk of primarily, breaking stuff. Risk of shocking the tires into spinning.

But then, there's risk no matter which way you go if you want to race the car. The only "no risk" choice is to not race it. If you want to race it, you have to risk it. Whether that risk is time, effort, or money.

What I would suggest, before you go out and spend a bunch of money, is to optimize what you have by trying different launch techniques.

[BeetleBug]

Thank you Mike, very well said!

Dragracing is all about the start. Look at Ben Johnson as the best example. He was a smoker and while his competitors where warming up for the final he was sitting on a chair smoking and watching them. This was not because he was heavy on steroids but because he knew he had the absolute best start of them all:

Go to 3.35 and take a good look:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pJj-EA_RgI4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/pJj-EA_RgI4</a>

The same goes for dragracing. It is all about how quickly you can get the car off from the start. and if you do not get a good start its over and out.

Best rgs
BB

[neil68]

What do you guys mean by fitting a soft clutch? Stag1 kennedy instead of stage 2? Or different discs?

Trying to learn here as Im not happy with my 1.9 sec 60ft

I use a KEP Stage 2 with Berg/Centreforce dual friction disc.  Over 600 1/4-mile races and still going strong, without tranaxle issues...however, 60' is only 1.7 seconds

[Old Guy]

Mike is right about trying different launch techniques with your current setup.  If you are going to err make it on the side of lighting up the tires as opposed to hooking too hard and breaking a trans.  Our 60fts are normally in the low 1.40's with a best of 1.39 at a couple of different strips.  Our NA car weighs 1725 lbs.  We run a Kennedy Stage II with Kennedy's 4 puck disc.  We don't run any clutch management and we leave at 8,000 RPM.