porsche power!

[speedwell]

 

The CarError Fastback appears to have lived it’s first 30+ years in the arid Arizona sunshine — which left it rust-free, but worn to the core of it’s 3rd or 4th replacement engine — after 100’s of thousands of hot and hairy highway miles in the blazing Arizona heat. Many signs of it’s decades-long battle with the sun were still apparent:  The windows were blacked out. The interior was white vinyl. And an 12 Volt DC oscillating fan was mounted to a dashboard that showed more cracks than the cylinder heads around the sunken exhaust valves… But the Dusty Little wasn’t ready to give it up to the crusher.
Our intrepid Team Leader ( a friend and pit crew member of the NorCal-based, LeMons veteran ‘Super Chicken Plymouth Belvedere’) saw the Fastback sitting outside the fence of the Foreign Aid Junkyard outside Phoenix Arizona , while on a bicycle racing team spring training camp training ride near Phoenix. It’s svelte silhouette and skinnier pricetag — screamed ‘LeMons Fodder’ to a man who had just recently been baptized in the LeMon’s juice.

A deal was struck. A U-Haul car-caddy was attached to the back of the Bike Team van. The Fasty was headed for the rustier climes of the midwest. And a date with Destiny. (No wait.That was the stripper we met on the way through St. Louis)

[Jim Ratto]

Nicolas, this post really got me going and thinking and not sleeping at night.
I started weighing some pro's and con's and answering some of my own questions, regarding my car, how I best enjoy it and what makes sense going forward.
Anyway, some of you whom I've know for a long time probably have read my reminiscing over long trips to Southern CA and all over the map during the early 1990's, all done with "Version 1.0" of my car with a stroked motor. In the 24 years since, and all the cams and heads, and "try this", "try that" and time slips, it is all very obvious, none of the high-winding prima-donna stuff was nearly as much fun as the rock-solid simplicity and reliability and mid range pull that the "father" to all these other engines had. Running .560" @ the valve doesn't make a bunch of sense to me, when sitting in stop and go on 5 Freeway. Or when hidden amongst douglas firs, forgetting 9 to 5 rat slaughter we call "daily life." A 1300rpm idle probably isn't as consequential . Having to refresh springs as often as cleaning gutters out is hopeless.
So, what will this be... version 12.0? A real driver. Emphasis on real.

[nicolas]

allright! maybe this could become a 'in da works tread' but hopefully in a combined way, where all our efforts and experiences can come together.

as said earlier i did have a great 2276 engine, but it wasn't a drag race car or super fast engine. pulls really well and i can get in and drive for hours. it is a bit harder on the senses then the previous 1776 i had. you have to 'work' more when driving. all good fun though.

but i want a type3 setup and the specs stated above are thought up with the idea of a medium displacement and maybe modest HP, but hopefully with a good driving-fun factor. like the post suggest, in a porsche 2.0 - 2.2l kind of way.

also, more and more, i am convinced that i and maybe a lot of us will never see the limits capable of such an engine (yes the modest one). mainly two reasons for this: 1. the driver (we are not discussing my skills or the lack of them in  this tread  ) 2.the handling and total setup of the car.

in my case i can say the car has been set up with 30mm torsion bars and spax adjustable shocks and it has hold up good on drag races. but in turns it loads the torsion bars so much that i have been thrown out of it more then once. it is me i know, but i was to handle easier to control with the stock torsion bars.

on the other hand i have been using talbot horizon brakes for years now and those were a very good improvement. i read about them in one of Keiths books and while on a hunt for alfa carbs in the south of France 10 years ago, i found them had them rebuild and fitted with the CSP larger diameter cylinder and correctly machined, original type 3 brakes in the back, all adjusted properly (that took me a while, because of failing aftermarkt drum brake cylinders). but i can recommend this on a type3 and probably on a beetle as well.

also another reason i wanted to get deeper into this was when i got my beetle (my first one) more than a year ago, it had mostly stock suspension setup, but drove like a cart. and more then one spirited drive in Fabs car showed me what pretty much stock beetle setups can do over my heavier type3. so Fiatdude i did understand what you posted, it is actually quite true. 

[modnrod]

My first ACVW (of my own, not my uncle's/nanna's/Opa's, etc) was a 1973 Squareback in unlovely "Baby-Poo Brown". When I bought it the Odo showed 65000km from new, and it had a tired engine (in the tropics). It was also just turned 10 years old.......(OOPS!!! Now I've given the game away a bit!)

Hahaha! Anyway, a work mate friend of mine with VW experience and I went to town on it just a tiny bit. I had sold a 12sec V8 ute to buy this wagon as my first child was on her way and I needed a family car for the little one, but who said it had to be slow?
We did all the work ourselves, and it used lots of locally available parts from other cars (mainly our local Holden), and a mates machine shop, so the cost was negligible.
The motor at least, went like this..........
* offset ground crank for 75mm Stroke (might have been 74 perhaps? A while ago now!) with 5.23" rods.
* 3.375" pistons with the tops shaved for compression height a bit and to fit, so 85.75mm bore I guess.
* hand-ported 38x33 heads (valves/springs/retainers, etc from Holden also), LOTS and LOTS of time spent here, but still fairly small volume from memory.
* Little tiny baby Norris 329S cam, love that cam, with high-ratio rockers, can't remember 1.25 or 1.4? This friend of mine (from the US) got a mate in the States to buy it and post it out.........I've been buying direct ever since!
* custom exhaust in 1.5" and a glass-pack out the side (it was the early 80s, remember?  )
* a single sidedraught 45 or 40 Dellorto off a Fiat/Alfa something sitting flat on top, set up in an "isolated runner" type way (I had one left in the shed, after fitting the first one to my Honda CB 750 bike..........but that's another story).

All simple stuff, easy to do. I didn't have any problems with exploding Type 3 fans because nobody told me, or the fan, it was dangerous I guess. Same for the 4-dowelled non-counterweight crank too, but good balancing saved the day I spose (either that, or I wasn't trying hard enough!).

That Squareback ran deep into the 15s and even snuck a high 14 once or twice, but for the first 100m was still just dynamite. It turned the 165s around fast sweeping corners with a hefty stomp to help steer it, and spun really cleanly to 6000.
It looked completely standard. 

Might do the job perhaps, or something similar?

[Zach Gomulka]

To me, a Porsche is more about the handling. Luckily, something like this is an easy swap for your fastback.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1596061
As long as the motor is eager, revs very freely, and has a solid mid-range, that's mostly what you need.

Many years ago I went on a day long drive with a friend in his '85 911 to the eastern mountains of Arizona. The car had quite a few miles on it by that time, but it was meticulously maintained and didn't show it's age. What I remember mostly is how the car wasn't blisteringly fast, it may not have been the best handling car (in today's terms) but the entire package, the engine, transmission, suspension, etc. was balanced so incredibly well together that it made for a massively entertaining car to drive. The engine loved to sing at over 4,000rpm, and you could just hold it there, seemingly forever. I'll never forget that drive.

[peejke]

HAve you seen the samba ad, pick up only.
Nicolas, it seems we have to take a trip to candyland.
Cheers

[mg]

To me, a Porsche is more about the handling. 

Zach Chuckwalla is only 3 hours from Prescott. 
http://youtu.be/EokoS6R_6c8

[Zach Gomulka]

HAve you seen the samba ad, pick up only.

I did, my point was that it's an easy switch. That's just the first picture I found.

[nicolas]

HAve you seen the samba ad, pick up only.
Nicolas, it seems we have to take a trip to candyland.
Cheers

HAve you seen the samba ad, pick up only.

I did, my point was that it's an easy switch. That's just the first picture I found.

no,no,no Zach! we'll pick it up. good excuse to get out of the house. doctor said i can go on vacations, seems to be good for recoveries, they even recommend it.
seems i even have someone who has a pickup to trailer it home. 

no i do have the wishbone here as we type. and even the support bolted in for the rear support… who knows. since i know that the black norwegian oval bomb has this setup i am thinking it can work…

[Jesse/DVK]

A bump to this thread as I'm looking at something like this too and since I'm selling my '64 beetle i'm looking for a new project. I might have found a nice 56 oval ragtop which I can drive for 2 years as is and in the meantime start saving and gathering parts. The engine won't be the problem there are enough options but what about the transmission? Porsche 915 gearbox? Is that possible in a oval window beetle? Changing to IRS?

[Isaac Potter]

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=160739&hl=Fastback

[nicolas]

cool link.
hopefully i may have some updates on my project as well.

[j-dub]

Keep the tyres 165s on 5.5" rims, maybe 185/70s, no bigger or they will grip too much and you lose the "feel".

I feel like I have heard this advice on this board before, is that a common onion? Currently I have 145s up front and 205/65R15s in the rear on 4.5 and 5.5" 5 lug sprint stars and I feel the car under steers. I am thinking about going to 165R15s in the rear to let it loosen up a bit and see if the "feel" returns.

Does that seem like a move in the right direction?

[nicolas]

Keep the tyres 165s on 5.5" rims, maybe 185/70s, no bigger or they will grip too much and you lose the "feel".

I feel like I have heard this advice on this board before, is that a common onion? Currently I have 145s up front and 205/65R15s in the rear on 4.5 and 5.5" 5 lug sprint stars and I feel the car under steers. I am thinking about going to 165R15s in the rear to let it loosen up a bit and see if the "feel" returns.

Does that seem like a move in the right direction?

between 205's and 165's there is a big step. maybe the 185/70 tyre is a good size. i like it, but having said this my new combo has a 195/65 tyre in the back and 175/65 in front. also i wanted the 'gap' between the skinny front and large back wheels closer to one another.

[j-f]

Hi Nicolas,

Do you use a narrowed front beam with your 175/65/15 tires? I've considered changing my tires from 145/15 and 165/15 to something a bit more beefy. I really like the 175/65 and 195/65 combo. 

[j-dub]

between 205's and 165's there is a big step. maybe the 185/70 tyre is a good size. i like it, but having said this my new combo has a 195/65 tyre in the back and 175/65 in front. also i wanted the 'gap' between the skinny front and large back wheels closer to one another.

Good point and I hear what you are saying.
Unfortunately around here they 185/70s are quite hard to come by and pricy as they were only used on Porsche 928 / 944 / 964 / 968 (F). Pirelli makes a 185/70 but they are $200 a piece compared to 165s at $60 a piece.

If I give them a try I will be sure to post back with my results.

[Zach Gomulka]

between 205's and 165's there is a big step. maybe the 185/70 tyre is a good size. i like it, but having said this my new combo has a 195/65 tyre in the back and 175/65 in front. also i wanted the 'gap' between the skinny front and large back wheels closer to one another.

Good point and I hear what you are saying.
Unfortunately around here they 185/70s are quite hard to come by and pricy as they were only used on Porsche 928 / 944 / 964 / 968 (F). Pirelli makes a 185/70 but they are $200 a piece compared to 165s at $60 a piece.

If I give them a try I will be sure to post back with my results.

I stopped by Wedge today and saw a car with those tires. Not bad looking at all. Going down from 205's will sure take some getting used to though, at least visually.

[nicolas]

Hi Nicolas,

Do you use a narrowed front beam with your 175/65/15 tires? I've considered changing my tires from 145/15 and 165/15 to something a bit more beefy. I really like the 175/65 and 195/65 combo. 

i am not sure if i can fit them with a standard beam and dropped spindles. but i don't think it needs much if you don't lower it too much.
on the type3 it clears without issues 

[j-dub]

edited

[nicolas]

OK so the engine is running and so far only one quick 2km run has been made, but it all seems to work nicely so far and from what i have been gathering in this first impression, this engine might come close to what i wanted in terms of 'porsche power'

the engine is a type3

78x90.5
engle FK44 on 1.25's
CR 9.8
043 heads with 40x35 valves reworked by steve for my old 1776 and now with the chamber volume matched to the 2007cc, matched inlet manifolds
stock reworked and clearanced rods
rebushed lifterbores, clearanced
lightened flywheel (light!)
no straight cut gears
42DCNFs on berg type3 manifolds
central pivot low CSP linkage
009 with a red coil
turbo thomas 1 5/8" type3 stainless exhaust
an old 3 finger type clutch from the 70's, re-enforced(can't remember what brand it was)

well that is about it. nothing too exotic there, but it seems to make up a package that has quite a good push in the lower RPMs and since i must limit it to 5500 - 6000 rpms because of the type 3 fan, i have the whole power band put to use.
i also went for larger tyres which are now 195 back and 185 front, that seem to grip better as to what i had before (they are new as well)

i just checked my valves yesterday and hopefully the weather will improve a bit so i can get it out again, do MOT and drive in 2015!

[Jim Ratto]

Nice, can you post pictures nicolas?

[nicolas]

hey, maybe a bit long due for a update and no pictures yet, but i am driving the car a bit more these days!

so it feels really good, if i have to compare the 1776 and this 2007 in power, this is a step up, but not a compromise. it will cruise in 4th and pull from idle right away. i will however have to limit the rpms by means of a rev limiter of some sort as it goes fast through the rev range. it has the new tires on it (185/65/15 front and a close shave with 195/65 back), but it all fits and feels good. i have had some info on these tires and i could have gone for a 'less expensive' tire for a smaller car and not have the same top speed rating, but a lower tread wear number and have an even stickier tire. but these are really hooky and handle very well, much better as the 165's and 185's before.
the oilpressure is a bit high, but that is because the weather is still cold and the oil is too thick like Bruce suggested, i will try a 10-40w oil next time.
so far no fan is needed on the cooler and i only did small trips. if it all comes together it will be the Ninove show as it's 'new first' outing.
the only small things i want to do is get the front a bit higher to level the car better as it is still a bit low and with the bigger tires the wheel sits too deep. i tried fitting dropped spindles, but in the end it didn't work out because my brakes couldn't fit with the relocated bracket… it would have been great as the drop of these is spot on to what i want. so on the agenda is still to get that sorted.
the gearbox is reenforced type3 and seems to be holding on really good. the only other part that needs following up is the clutch. with a stage two and a stock rigid plate, i think i am on the edge of the holding power of this setup. but it works! so no changes if it works. the pedal is so smooth and soft though, easy grandpa style 
i would like to know how much power it has and what it really performs at what RPMs, but no dyno run is planned, just cruise and enjoy it.

[j-f]

Maybe you can try an app on your smartphone that will give you 0-100km and 1/4mile e.t. . It can roughly estimate how fast (or slow  )your car actually is. Car performer seems to work well.

[nicolas]

oh boy, smartphone, i have one, i like the good led light it has on it… 

i'll see what i can do 

[j-f]

oh boy, smartphone, i have one, i like the good led light it has on it… 

i'll see what i can do 

It's pretty easy and fun to use 
But don't be tempted to see every straight line as a potential drag strip 

[nicolas]

oh boy, smartphone, i have one, i like the good led light it has on it… 

i'll see what i can do 

It's pretty easy and fun to use 
But don't be tempted to see every straight line as a potential drag strip 

tempted, me? nah why do you think that 

BTW it is really different here (i moved three years ago now) seems like more then a few people have a heavy foot around here, the road isn't anything special or spectacular, but in this area i hear quite a few high revving cars every other day it seems…


anyway, i will fiddle with this as soon as the damn thing is fixed. broke/killed it last week.

[nicolas]

another update as i have had a few issues and a bit more driving has been done now. getting ready for EBI is the main goal now and of course DRIVING!

like i said in earlier posts the clutch was soft, but it slipped. so when i started to drive it to some cars and coffee style meetings 10-15 miles around my house on a few occasions and a couple of times to work, i noticed that the clutch didn't hold up. so i ordered a daikin disc from RJvolksparts and fitted this instead. there was also some oild from teh gearbox in the housing, so i replaced the seal and took the time to install a new trowout bearing as well, something i didn't do the firts time and which i should have done the first time.
i did shim the clutch and this was on my setup a mistake so i had to take it all out again and do it over, no shims this time.
the problem is with my engine that you need to take of the complete exhaust and some oil lines as well as the whole bracing. so it is a couple of evenings work, but it seems to be done now.
i also took the time to change the oil to a semi synthetic 10w-40 and redo the oil filler tube of the type3 as it had a a hairpin hole in it when i did it the first time. so whith this down and the exhaust cementeted back in place it was time to test it again.
again, it runs great  and the clutch seems to hold up. when the engine is hot the oilpressure stays at 3 bars when driving and 1 on idle (which is 800rpms). that seems low, but my experience with 3 other engines is that on my VDO's this reading is OK and there is enough pressure to lube all parts.
i want to update the iginition with an MSD to have rev limiter at 6000 or 6200 rpms max. and maybe a better spark.

and with the engine out i didn't have the exhaust hanging from under the apron. that was way better. i had to fit a big turbo muffler as it was the only thing that fits the header that i have and it isn't the best looking thing. i was pleased with my hideaway setup i have had for years, but now i am thinking about a type 3 exhaust from CSP… it might 'clean up' the rear vieuw and bring it even a bit closer to that porsche look i have been after. 

[max, Der Bahnstormerz]

I was going to redo my 2332 with a smallish cam. The heads will still remain large, so I reckon the rpm's will be limited to under 6500, but it'll still pull hard up to that as a result of moderate compression, static approx 9.8 to 1. Gone are the days of high lifts and durations, been there done that and got bored with it, smallish cams with a little engine management seems the way forward.

Looking at production cars these days, and what has happened in the last 10 years highlights this. It's normal for a 2.0 n/a motor to make  a smooth 170hp, deliver 35++ mpg and not worry about high temps.

[Jim Ratto]

I was going to redo my 2332 with a smallish cam. The heads will still remain large, so I reckon the rpm's will be limited to under 6500, but it'll still pull hard up to that as a result of moderate compression, static approx 9.8 to 1. Gone are the days of high lifts and durations, been there done that and got bored with it, smallish cams with a little engine management seems the way forward.

Looking at production cars these days, and what has happened in the last 10 years highlights this. It's normal for a 2.0 n/a motor to make  a smooth 170hp, deliver 35++ mpg and not worry about high temps.

But those are multi-valve engines with very light springs. Direct injection and 11:1+ CR too. And boring powerbands.

[Martin S.]

My motor does all that, except the last point! (just need to add a second Setrab)