Do anyone know where I can find the link pin King Pin Inclination angle?

[Jon]

It looks like five degrees, but I would like to be sure. Canber angle would also be good to know.
Thanks

[56BLITZ]

You can find camber here . . . http://oacdp.org/wog69/063.png

[56BLITZ]

Here is caster . . . http://oacdp.org/wog69/065.png

[56BLITZ]

Sorry . . . looks like the info I posted is for ball-joint!

[Jon]

Thanks!

Do anyone know how much caster is built in to the framehead?

[hotrodsurplus]

It looks like five degrees, but I would like to be sure. Canber angle would also be good to know.

It's four degrees on a kingpin knuckle. Don't know what it is for a ball-joint suspension.

Another term for it here is Steering Axis Inclination. SAI more accurately describes the angle for all designs including those that don't have kingpins (like ball-joint suspensions).

And just to make sure that we are on the same page this is what kingpin inclination/steering-axis inclination looks like.

Do anyone know how much caster is built in to the framehead?

The line through the torsion-tube centerlines is perpendicular to the chassis on kingpin and ball-joint chassis. When the chassis lays flat on the ground then the line through the tube centerlines is absolutely vertical. It appears that the lower tube in a ball-joint frame head recesses further into the head than the upper tube but that is because the lower tube is a bigger diameter than the upper tube. The kingpin tubes are both the same diameter.

Here is a rather simple diagram.

[Jon]

It looks like five degrees, but I would like to be sure. Canber angle would also be good to know.

It's four degrees on a kingpin knuckle. Don't know what it is for a ball-joint suspension.

Thanks that helps a lot, so 4° relative to vertical, do you happen to know if the spindle is horizontal as well. And can I ask you where you found this information? 

It appears that the lower tube in a ball-joint frame head recesses further into the head than the upper tube but that is because the lower tube is a bigger diameter than the upper tube. The kingpin tubes are both the same diameter.

That was truly an eyeopener for me, I have never heard anything about this in my 25 years in this hobby.
Are all balljoint beams built with different size tubes? And how about the weld in adjusters... lots of new things to think about. 

[hotrodsurplus]

do you happen to know if the spindle is horizontal as well.

According to Without Guesswork the front has +30' camber (half a degree positive).

And can I ask you where you found this information?

Absolutely. I measured it on two knuckles: one Type I and another Porsche.  

That was truly an eyeopener for me, I have never heard anything about this in my 25 years in this hobby.

The day you stop learning is the day you die! Yeah, the more you learn about these things the less you realize that you actually know.

[/quote]Are all balljoint beams built with different size tubes? And how about the weld in adjusters... lots of new things to think about.[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge, yes. The upper tube diameter is the same as kingpin. In fact the upper torsion-arm diameter is the same as kingpin which explains why they use the same bearings. But the lower tube is in fact larger.

the difference isn't enough to cause problems with the adjusters. It's not a huge difference.

Another weird detail: most of the frame head is the same for kingpin and ball joint. Only the face plate and lower plate differ and the biggest difference is that the lower tube sits lower in the chassis. The upper tube is in the same location.

[Jon]

I got a friend of mine to look up the linkpin beetle in the four wheel adjustment software at his work. It says the figure is 5° and the camber is 30' like you say.
And it's also backed by this page: http://www.thegoldenbug.com/en/vw_technical_articles/d80/engine_1200_d   even if the years are wrong for the European marked at least. Or could balljoint be that close?

Reverse engineering is a joy! 

[hotrodsurplus]

even if the years are wrong for the European marked at least. Or could balljoint be that close?

It would not surprise me if they were that close. Most pre-war designs like Ford and Chevrolet had as much as eight degrees but others had as little as four. For the most part the SAI remained pretty consistent for a manufacturer.

I think Mercedes Benz owns the record for SAI. Some of its cars have as much as 24 degrees! If you turn the steering wheel to full lock the inside wheel raises the car up on that side and the outside turning wheel lowers the car on that side.

Reverse engineering is a joy! 

I'm curious...what are you making or modifying?

[Jon]

More investigations, some of my workshop manuals had the details for the balljoint, and only gave a reference to look in the owners manual  for the older cars.
I found the the manual for my 64, but it had no details, however inside I found a paper with details from a alignment check from the sixties or seventies. And it had both measured angles, factory specs and adjusted angle. Unfortunately they are hand written an may contain human mistakes.

Here is what it says under factory specs:
Camber:        0°40' ± 30'
King Pin Incl:  4° 20'
Caster:           2° ± 15

A friend of mine had a look in the manual from 1954 and found these details:
Camber:        0°40' ± 30'
King Pin Incl:  4° 20'
Caster:           2°30'  ± 30

[hotrodsurplus]

...inside I found a paper with details from a alignment check from the sixties or seventies. And it had both measured angles, factory specs and adjusted angle. Unfortunately they are hand written an may contain human mistakes.

Those 4° 20' SAI specs are probably spot on. I couldn't get much closer than 4° with the tools i was using. Run with it, son.

You're stuck with whatever camber you've got. If it's off spec then it indicates that something is bent. Juggling the shims won't change camber much without inducing bind.

Caster is another story. You can alter it and, for our purposes, the more the better. Stock-rake cars should get at least one set of caster shims. Cars with a nose-down rake usually must get two sets of caster shims.

Extra caster is nice: it makes the car more stable at high speeds. The worst thing that excessive caster can do is make the steering a little hard and induce a little bit of understeer. But understeer is a good thing on any Volkswagen, especially good on a swing-axle car, and absolutely necessary on a car that lacks the front anti-roll bar. Everything I build gets at least one set of caster shims. Even my wife's Baja.

[Jon]

I'm curious...what are you making or modifying?

I'm just learning Solidworks, and my first project is to draw the entire linkpin suspension.
This is how far I have gotten, luckily I have made it in such a way that I can change measurements and degrees at any time.

[hotrodsurplus]

I'm just learning Solidworks, and my first project is to draw the entire linkpin suspension.
This is how far I have gotten, luckily I have made it in such a way that I can change measurements and degrees at any time.

Impressive! I have a few ideas.

Draw them with the Porsche spindle diameter. The VW spindles are notoriously weak. If those ever became a reality they would have a distinct advantage over the standard Beetle parts. The Beetle drums fit the Porsche spindles if you use the Porsche inner wheel bearings (the outer bearing is the same). You don't want to try to market to the VW community even though they would work on any kingpin VW. Volkswagen enthusiasts are notoriously cheap. However, Porsche enthusiasts have deep pockets. And replacement Porsche spindles are exceedingly expensive anymore.

Increase the diameter of the tie-rod-end boss and web (gusset) the steering arm. That would make them appeal to the off-road community. We have to gusset the arms because in stock form they're really weak. And we sometimes have to weld material around the tie-rod-end boss when we ream them for larger tie-rod end spuds (like Ford or International).

Those two things would increase the market appeal. Knuckles built that way would work on stock Volkswagens, Porsches, and off-road play cars (the Class 1-2/1600 and 5 guys run giant knuckles and the 11 guys are limited to modified stock ones).

I don't think you're actually thinking of making parts (the forging dies would be insanely expensive) but if we are dreaming we might as well dream big. You could also design a version that had three degrees negative camber. The 356 road racers would gobble those up. As it is they pay close to $2,000 for a pair of three-degree knuckles.