IDA top entry and convert to AN -6.

[steve_pugh]

I know there is the jay cee kit to do this but it just looks to me like a fancy set of bolts to blank off the old hole.
Can I move the brass bolt from the top to the side in place of the banjo bolt, and then just get an AN converter to go in the top? 

What is the thread that is used on the IDA?  I know a Dellorto uses M12.
I can get an xx to AN -6 adaptor for just over a fiver. But the jay cee kit is £30!

I don't nesesarilly mind that the blanking plug is a fancy anodised one.    The kit just looks like exactly this.  Two converters and two blanking bolts. 

[neil68]

Can I move the brass bolt from the top to the side in place of the banjo bolt, and then just get an AN converter to go in the top?  

No, the thread size is quite different, so the top bolt will not fit the side entry.  I just installed the -6 AN Jaycee kit (picked it up while vacationing in California) and it was a simple installation.

[spanners]

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Demon-Tweeks-Direct/Fuel-System-Accessories-/_i.html?rt=nc&_fsub=2825472014&_sid=82983844&_trksid=p4634.m14&_pgn=2

[steve_pugh]

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Demon-Tweeks-Direct/Fuel-System-Accessories-/_i.html?rt=nc&_fsub=2825472014&_sid=82983844&_trksid=p4634.m14&_pgn=2

What am I looking at here spanners?

[dth]

Guessing it,ll be the metric - jic fitting

[steve_pugh]

Guessing it,ll be the metric - jic fitting

Ah.  Just googled JIC.  I didn't realise it was the same as AN fittings.   

[dth]

[Tourist]

Good afternoon Steve,

The IDA side port is M12 x 1.5, and the top port is M16 x 1.5.  


For the top port, I had to cut down the metric side of the male to male adapter so that it would fit securely with the appropriate seal washer:


This is what I ended up with:


For the side ports I used:

2 off. M12 x 1.5 self centering bonded seal/dowty seal washers,
and 2 off. M12 x 1.5 brass blanking plugs.

For the top port I used:

2 off M16 x 1.5 self centering bonded seal/dowty seal washers,
and 2 off. "male to male" M16 x 1.5 to AN6/-6 adapters.

I hope this helps- I have not road tested this, so follow what I've done strictly at your own risk.  

Just as an end note, I only used brass blanking plugs because I wanted it look a bit more subtle/original, cost wise I think it might be more cost effective (and less hassle) to buy the JayCee kit from RJ VolksPerformance for example , I only tried it out of curiosity to see if it could be done, and to see if I could do it with limited hand tools- a hacksaw, a hoseclamp, pliers and masking tape ....

Take care and all the best,
Martin.

[steve_pugh]

Good afternoon Steve,

The IDA side port is M12 x 1.5, and the top port is M16 x 1.5.  


For the top port, I had to cut down the metric side of the male to male adapter so that it would fit securely with the appropriate seal washer:


This is what I ended up with:


For the side ports I used:

2 off. M12 x 1.5 self centering bonded seal/dowty seal washers,
and 2 off. M12 x 1.5 brass blanking plugs.

For the top port I used:

2 off M16 x 1.5 self centering bonded seal/dowty seal washers,
and 2 off. "male to male" M16 x 1.5 to AN6/-6 adapters.

I hope this helps- I have not road tested this, so follow what I've done strictly at your own risk.  

Just as an end note, I only used brass blanking plugs because I wanted it look a bit more subtle/original, cost wise I think it might be more cost effective (and less hassle) to buy the JayCee kit from RJ VolksPerformance for example , I only tried it out of curiosity to see if it could be done, and to see if I could do it with limited hand tools- a hacksaw, a hoseclamp, pliers and masking tape ....

Take care and all the best,
Martin.

Hi Martin,

Thanks for this.
This is what I have thought too as the AN -6 to M16 adaptors are quite deep at the bottom compared to the Jaycee kit.    But I too thought I'd just cut it off the excess.   
If you don't mind sharing, Where did you get your AN adaptor from?  Was it from Torques on Ebay?     
And where did you get your brass blank from and the sealing washers also.  I like the fact that it blends in and the only fancy coloured bit is the AN fitting, so it looks like it is meant to be that way. 

The fact you use sealing washers, is another reason I don't understand why the Jaycee kit is so expensive as it doesn't even come with washers.  Just the 4 anodised items.

Thanks Martin.   Appreciate the time to post those photos.   

[Tourist]

Good morning Steve,

The M16 self centering bonded seal/dowty washers I bought from Torques UK;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170654327734

The M12 self centering bonded seal/dowty washers I bought from silicone_hose_world;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260755134924&var=560025877994

The M16 x 1.5>AN6 "male to male" adapters I bought from aclubuk;
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/aclubUK/_i.html?_nkw=m16+an6&submit=Search&_sid=1009120288

The M12 x 1.5 hex. brass blanking plugs I bought from qualityparts09
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310313856273&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:GB:3160

I bought the parts from different sellers as it was a bit of an experiment, and if it went badly wrong, I wanted to have spent as little as possible....

If I am being picky, where I have cut down the metric end of the M16 fitting, the inside could perhaps do with a tiny bit of porting/bevelling for a little more clearance with the casting of the carb. body where the stock fuel filter would sit if that makes any sense....

Have fun,
Martin.

[steve_pugh]

Good morning Steve,

The M16 self centering bonded seal/dowty washers I bought from Torques UK;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170654327734

The M12 self centering bonded seal/dowty washers I bought from silicone_hose_world;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260755134924&var=560025877994

The M16 x 1.5>AN6 "male to male" adapters I bought from aclubuk;
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/aclubUK/_i.html?_nkw=m16+an6&submit=Search&_sid=1009120288

The M12 x 1.5 hex. brass blanking plugs I bought from qualityparts09
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310313856273&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:GB:3160

I bought the parts from different sellers as it was a bit of an experiment, and if it went badly wrong, I wanted to have spent as little as possible....

If I am being picky, where I have cut down the metric end of the M16 fitting, the inside could perhaps do with a tiny bit of porting/bevelling for a little more clearance with the casting of the carb. body where the stock fuel filter would sit if that makes any sense....

Have fun,
Martin.

Wow! the straight adaptor is SUPER cheap from aclubUK...   £5.19+69p post at torques vs £3.90 and free post from aclubUK!   

Total cost of conversion.. £17.06, Delivered!  yes a little cutting is involved... So what.    the Jaycee kit is £35!!!    Are you just paying for the name?  The convenience? 

The Jaycee kit doesn't look to come with any kind of sealing washers either..  Not in any of the descriptions from Jaycee, Pierside etc.   
My understanding is that the dowty washers are not 100% needed as the AN fittings are a taper fit?   But belt and braces and all that. :-)

One last question..  As the top entry is above the stock IDA fuel filter, do you still run the filter in there or does it have to come out?


Thanks again Martin.    Glad I'm not the only one willing to try something outside the box.   

Steve.

[Tourist]

Good morning Steve,

The M16 self centering bonded seal/dowty washers I bought from Torques UK;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170654327734

The M12 self centering bonded seal/dowty washers I bought from silicone_hose_world;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260755134924&var=560025877994

The M16 x 1.5>AN6 "male to male" adapters I bought from aclubuk;
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/aclubUK/_i.html?_nkw=m16+an6&submit=Search&_sid=1009120288

The M12 x 1.5 hex. brass blanking plugs I bought from qualityparts09
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310313856273&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:GB:3160

I bought the parts from different sellers as it was a bit of an experiment, and if it went badly wrong, I wanted to have spent as little as possible....

If I am being picky, where I have cut down the metric end of the M16 fitting, the inside could perhaps do with a tiny bit of porting/bevelling for a little more clearance with the casting of the carb. body where the stock fuel filter would sit if that makes any sense....

Have fun,
Martin.

Wow! the straight adaptor is SUPER cheap from aclubUK...   £5.19+69p post at torques vs £3.90 and free post from aclubUK!   

Total cost of conversion.. £17.06, Delivered!  yes a little cutting is involved... So what.    the Jaycee kit is £35!!!    Are you just paying for the name?  The convenience? 

The Jaycee kit doesn't look to come with any kind of sealing washers either..  Not in any of the descriptions from Jaycee, Pierside etc.   
My understanding is that the dowty washers are not 100% needed as the AN fittings are a taper fit?   But belt and braces and all that. :-)

One last question..  As the top entry is above the stock IDA fuel filter, do you still run the filter in there or does it have to come out?


Thanks again Martin.    Glad I'm not the only one willing to try something outside the box.   

Steve.

Good morning Steve,

If I recall correctly, there was not enough room for the stock IDA fuel filter, it may be possible to make clearance for it, but at the expense of weakening the fitting?

Maybe the JayCee fitting is a better design (and safer) in this respect- but being no expert I cannot comment....

Perhaps someone else reading this thread who has used the JayCee kit can help regarding the use of the stock IDA fuel filter with the JayCee parts?     

My understanding regarding the use of dowty washers etc. from what I can remember being told by Think Automotive many years ago is that metric threads need them, but taper threads do not; these use PTFE tape.

Hopefully someone better qualified than me will contribute soon....
Martin.

[richie]

Steve

Jaycee kit is designed to use the factory washers, it is the correct length and designed to fit, and do the job correctly, the plug fitting is a CNC machined part Jack/Jaycee manufactures themselves and I believe the top fitting is as well but cant say 100% on that.
Is there a cheaper way of doing it? yes as Martin showed, I guess it depends on how you value your time as to if it actually saves you money, after you have done your research, ordered the parts, shortened them, tapered the inside of the top fitting to flow correctly[ you are going to do that aren't you? ] do you actually save anything? couple of hours with researching and the mods needed, even at minimum wage that's close to the 35pounds a Jaycee set costs

And as a added bonus for free some extra info , the AN/jic fitting is the outer tapered end that the fuel line goes to, neither of the metric threads are tapered, it must have a sealing washer. On say a full flow oil pump cover the hole in the pump cover is cut tapered and the correct fitting will match and seal without any other parts needed, as an example I would use 3/8 NPT to -8 for that, the 3/8 NPT is a taper and goes into the pump cover, the -8 is a straight thread which the hose/fitting goes to and seals on the end not the thread

Why are you even trying to go into the top of the carb, why not use the factory supplied side entry fittings? that's the cheapest way and works fine


cheers Richie

[Tourist]

To everyone reading my ramblings.... 

In case I forgot to mention earlier, I only did this to satisfy my curiosity- and with hindsight, including taking into the account the time/hassle involved/cost of the exact parts I used, I would recommend using the JayCee parts. 

Ironically, I may not end up using mine as I might be using "proper" air filters in order to make my car a little more "neighbour friendly" when the motor/engine eventually gets redone....

The other way to do it might be a straight banjo fitting to AN6?


Martin.

[steve_pugh]

Steve

Jaycee kit is designed to use the factory washers, it is the correct length and designed to fit, and do the job correctly, the plug fitting is a CNC machined part Jack/Jaycee manufactures themselves and I believe the top fitting is as well but cant say 100% on that.
Is there a cheaper way of doing it? yes as Martin showed, I guess it depends on how you value your time as to if it actually saves you money, after you have done your research, ordered the parts, shortened them, tapered the inside of the top fitting to flow correctly[ you are going to do that aren't you? ] do you actually save anything? couple of hours with researching and the mods needed, even at minimum wage that's close to the 35pounds a Jaycee set costs

And as a added bonus for free some extra info , the AN/jic fitting is the outer tapered end that the fuel line goes to, neither of the metric threads are tapered, it must have a sealing washer. On say a full flow oil pump cover the hole in the pump cover is cut tapered and the correct fitting will match and seal without any other parts needed, as an example I would use 3/8 NPT to -8 for that, the 3/8 NPT is a taper and goes into the pump cover, the -8 is a straight thread which the hose/fitting goes to and seals on the end not the thread

Why are you even trying to go into the top of the carb, why not use the factory supplied side entry fittings? that's the cheapest way and works fine


cheers Richie

I hear you Richie.

I'm just trying to explore alternative methods.   Time is just my time in the evenings so the cost of time doesn't factor, but safety does.  And I do want it to work.     There are just many parts that cost a lot because of who they are made by.    
If there was a way I could buy the JayCee Top entries alone without the fancy CNC machined blanks that would be preferable, because as you say the time to cut and taper and still not get the proper flow is worth buying the right part, (I will admit, I didn't know that this would be an issue and probably would have just cut a straight cut like martin has   )  but I would say that given a stock brass blank on the top is fine, that an equally cheap blank on the side would suffice.  All it's doing is blanking and you can't see it anyway.    

It is a shame that you don't get washers in the kit, because the factory fibre washers will likely be damaged by taking the old plug out.  So on top of the cost, you need to buy some anyway.


The main reasons for moving it to the top are because I'm running a stock fanhouse not a 30hp style one, and it's pretty close to the side, but mainly because the stock banjo fitting is super short, and also I am making up JIC / AN -6 hoses and to buy an AN - 6 banjo and bolt is £30 each!   And it'll still be close to the fan.  

Look how short the stock banjo fitting is and how close to the carb body it is.. . How you would even get a hose and a clamp on there I don't know!


I'm doing this because I have had too many leaks / failures with jubilee clips, and trying to do this with stainless overbraided hose is a 'mare also.   The frays etc if you take it on and off a few times... I'd rather have a neat swivel seal fitting.   So I'm trying to do things properly, but all the while keeping cost down.  Both are equally important and I don't mind putting some time in to help do this.
I've taken longer than I thought putting the engine together so far because I've checked, and double checked and then double checked that again to be sure.  I'd rather take my time than do a half arsed job, Only to be let down at the last hurdle with a bunch of crappy hose and jubilees.  

That's good info too about the tapers.  thank you.  
I will be using 3/8 NPT to -8 on the pump cover and the Case input, and also on the Filter head in/outs.  And for space, I will be using the brass 90degree fitting in the case return, and the 3/8 to AN8 converter in that.  is the brass 90Deg Taper cut also or does this need ptfe or a seal?   I was gonna use ptfe.

I really appreciate this input tho guys.   A bit of time spent now learning this stuff will save me a whole lot of heartache later.

[richie]

I am all for doing it as best we can

 Doing the top entry you loose the factory filter , we also machine the actual fuel inlet inside their down which opens that hole up more and do the float bowl mods to give it more capacity

You don't put a hose on that banjo fitting, you can tap it and put a 1/4 npt to barb fitting into it, or tig a -6 fitting to it, with a stock shroud its is a bitch to get it to clear everything though, I would put a 36hp style shroud on it for that reason alone.Also the fibre washers are really good, I have used them over and over, its rare to damage one so its not usable.

Yes the brass 90 fitting has tapered inlet and outlet, I use a little thread sealant on them all as added insurance

cheers Richie

[steve_pugh]

I am all for doing it as best we can

 Doing the top entry you loose the factory filter , we also machine the actual fuel inlet inside their down which opens that hole up more and do the float bowl mods to give it more capacity

You don't put a hose on that banjo fitting, you can tap it and put a 1/4 npt to barb fitting into it, or tig a -6 fitting to it, with a stock shroud its is a bitch to get it to clear everything though, I would put a 36hp style shroud on it for that reason alone.Also the fibre washers are really good, I have used them over and over, its rare to damage one so its not usable.

Yes the brass 90 fitting has tapered inlet and outlet, I use a little thread sealant on them all as added insurance

cheers Richie

Thanks Richie.  
I've spent too many years doing the "Make Do" option and am done with it.  

I would like to run a 36hp style but again, I have a gen fanhouse and I was going to use it.   Plus as a street used car, you just can't beat the cooling vanes inside a genuine VW fanhouse. But mainly cost.. :-)  
I did see this for sale, but the angle on the one side looks like there woudl be even less cooling?  (Aside from the nasty chrome which would be taken off and painted:  


I'm pretty glad you said that about the stock banjo fitting.    So when you buy the carbs from new, you can't fit a hose on it unless you replace it for a longer banjo fitting or you tap it?  What IS that tiny banjo for then?    
I guess Tapping it would be simple enough to do if there is enough meat on it to do without risk of it splitting.  
My only limitation there then is clearance.   Perhaps a small tease with a big hammer would do the job.  
I would like the other mods to be done to the carbs at some point including the float bowl and 3rd progression etc.  so perhaps when the time comes I'll pop them in to you for this?  Is this a service you offer?

It also wasn't clear from any of the marketing that just says "No drilling or tapping, just easy installation." that the stock filter has to come out.. I guess it's no great shakes as I have a good inline filter anyway.  

Thanks for the info on the brass 90deg too.  I was hoping to avoid using it but you can't spin on an Ali 90 degree as the case is in the way..   So I have to use one and then a straight adaptor.   Works out cheaper that way anyway.   And I'm paranoid about everything so it all gets thread sealant on it.  
Nothing is just simple is it.    

[chez2165]

I bought the jaycee parts to move the inlet to the top for no other reason than I have a trekker fan shroud and don't want to have to start create clearance on the fan shroud.

[Frallan]

I begin to think that original banjo is not meant for an outside mounted hose and hose clamp. Probbaly a soldered pipe on the inside of it was the design idea.
Or?