My First Engine Build....2110

[andy198712]

Got a bit more done,

measured my endplay (flywheel @100 ft/lbs) with no shims and got 0.96mm and ordered up 0.88mm of shims, 1x .24 and 2x .32 shims, giving me 0.08mm of end play... hopefully!

dented my pulley tin so it clears the full flow fitting and the pulley

Cleaned the fitted up my rockers, getting the side play down as low as possible.

set the valves to .15mm and put on some new valve covers (stock) and bails which are nice the tight fitting!

thats pretty much it on the long block!

need to make my own oil cooler bypass out of ally block i have ready and marked out. and need to make a fuel pump block off and a dizzy plug.... (or buy one)

fit up the stock tinware and a stock 34 pict 3 rejetted so i can run it in without worrying about a new FI system ect, then convert over to FI and 911 cooling   bit less pressure!

Also ordered up a modal sandwich plate with a thermostat so i'm getting close!

[richie]

Hi Andy

is that end play really 0.08mm?  or thou? I think that's to tight for a performance engine, I set them at 0.06 -0.08 THOU   so 0.15-0.2mm[ hope I got that right in conversion]

 0.12mm would be absolute tightest I would run. Don't want to spoil all your good work now


cheers Richie

[cedric]

I always run 0.10-0.12 never lower!

[andy198712]

Oh right...? Stock specs are 0.07mm to 0.13mm
Which is .002-.005" ish.

BUT I guess this isn't a stock engine

So if I've got a .24 shim and two .32 shims to get another .04 I'd want to swap those two 32's for 30's I guess I'll give coolair a ring today and try and change that order

Giving me .12mm or 0.0047"

Cheers guys could have been a nasty mistake there!

[richie]

Oh right...? Stock specs are 0.07mm to 0.13mm
Which is .002-.005" ish.

BUT I guess this isn't a stock engine

So if I've got a .24 shim and two .32 shims to get another .04 I'd want to swap those two 32's for 30's I guess I'll give coolair a ring today and try and change that order

Giving me .12mm or 0.0047"

Cheers guys could have been a nasty mistake there!

You are still going to be right on tight side, I would get 2 more .24 and 2 .30 so you can measure it together & swap around to get it right, and you will probably find you need to de burr the edges of them all as they always seem to have lip where they stamp them out 

cheers Richie

[andy198712]

Oh right...? Stock specs are 0.07mm to 0.13mm
Which is .002-.005" ish.

BUT I guess this isn't a stock engine

So if I've got a .24 shim and two .32 shims to get another .04 I'd want to swap those two 32's for 30's I guess I'll give coolair a ring today and try and change that order

Giving me .12mm or 0.0047"

Cheers guys could have been a nasty mistake there!

You are still going to be right on tight side, I would get 2 more .24 and 2 .30 so you can measure it together & swap around to get it right, and you will probably find you need to de burr the edges of them all as they always seem to have lip where they stamp them out 

cheers Richie

Cheers buddy, in the end (read this after changing my order)
I ordered 2x 0.24 1x 0.34 1x 0.36
 So with two 24's and a 36 I'd have a total of .84 stick and free play of .12 or with the 34 instead of the .36 I'd have .14mm.....

As you say I'll check for burrs and to see if they are what they say are...
We'll see and I'll report back!
Thanks very much guys

[andy198712]

So, This had been playing in my head and had some helpful advice from here too (thanks guys)

i upped the torque on the crank bolt to 270lbs using the torque tool its really easy, it was at 100.
Rechecked my measurements about 25 times (literally) about 20 times it was 0.97mm and 5 it was 0.98mm (maybe it was rounding up as this gauge goes to two DP)

So with that extra 0.01mm it stands me at 0.15mm end play with the two .24mm and a .34mm i have coming, IF once i deburr and measure the shims they are thicker, i'll have to swap some as i'm not going to go below 0.15mm AKA the Webb theory if they turn out thinner i'll still be safe.

Although the more i think about it, i'll most likely swap some anyway to get more into the middle range Richie  was saying....

[richie]

Although the more i think about it, i'll most likely swap some anyway to get more into the middle range Richie  was saying....

Better to be safe for me and let more oil flow through, also I personally don't think it is so critical to keep it tight on EFI engines, on engine with dizzy crank moving backward and forward might affect timing as gears move but not on crank trigger engines

cheers Richie

[andy198712]

Although the more i think about it, i'll most likely swap some anyway to get more into the middle range Richie  was saying....

Better to be safe for me and let more oil flow through, also I personally don't think it is so critical to keep it tight on EFI engines, on engine with dizzy crank moving backward and forward might affect timing as gears move but not on crank trigger engines

cheers Richie

Thats a good point, as it slides it'll want to spin the gear a tad... could be a few degrees between pinging and not.

when you think about it, its kind of an odd place to put the thrust, in terms of oil, if it was inside the crank case it would get slash fed as well as run off from the bearings, if it was on number 2 or 3 anyways. i'm sure there move positives to it being where it is though!

[andy198712]

0.11mm....  going to double triple check that i don't have any over night corrosion on the flywheel face (doubtful) by giving it a light polish and check again.

i de burred the shims before even attempting a measure. they're just thicker then their marked  that was with the 24,24,34 combo so i need to swap that 34 for a 30. they were all a bit bigger then what they said, so if the .30mm is actually .30 i'll have more free play which is ok! tempted to pop by a local vw place and see if they have any up there i can swap/buy before ordering some.

started making my oil cooler bypass today also, the ally is harder then i thought! don't know what grade it was but it claimed two thin drill bits!

started like this



and ended today like this



Mounting holes cut (need to enlarge two to 8mm for the larger holes i think but will double check) and the "slot" is rough cut at the minute so will get in there with my burrs and make that horrible mess into a nice smooth slot for the oil to flow.

was thinking of a paper gasket or just Curil that i used for the case or blue holymer that i also have....

[richie]

I put 3 thin ones in envelope for you,  just going to PO now with them


On that oil cooler block off how are you going to drill it so oil passes through it still?

cheers Richie

[andy198712]

I put 3 thin ones in envelope for you,  just going to PO now with them


On that oil cooler block off how are you going to drill it so oil passes through it still?

cheers Richie

Thank you very much! Very kind of you! Can I give you anything for them?

Where the horrible messy looki bit is now... Those holes are 20mm deep an I'll turn that into a slot like the by-pass plates you see for sale. Just need to fire up the Dremel mill later...
That'll join the in and out of the case in a nice non restrictive mannor. I'll find a link

http://www.fastfabonline.com/Oil-Cooler-Block-off-Plates_c_37.html

Like those^^

[richie]

No they are free

that makes sense on block off, there is a gasket available that should fit then

cheers Richie 

[andy198712]

No they are free

that makes sense on block off, there is a gasket available that should fit then

cheers Richie 

Thanks Richie! very kind

yeah the gasket with the slotted centre section (i'll probably make one from gasket material anyways)

it's coming along nice with the dremel, will pop up some pics tomorrow 

Just for a twin port manifold to source, fit up the tin ware and wait on a main jet to arrive.... i'm pretty much there..... scary! then pop it in the car, hook up a VR sensor (forgot, need to make a mount for that) and i'm good to go!

[andy198712]

Clutch alignment tool arrived along with my 165main jet I need for the 34pict 3 to run it in.
Got to sorce a cheap exhaust to tide me over till I save up for a sidewinder (I really fancy a gutted stock exhaust) and a twinport manifold. And I'm done!

[andy198712]

Starting with a thanks to Richie! Very kindly gave my some shims so now my endplay is 0.16mm which I'm happy with

Installed a flywheel oil seal and seated it down so its recessed in a bit. Put some grease around the outside to help it slide in smoothly. Then applied good amounts of assembly lube on the lip of the seal and mounted my flywheel with lube on the seal surface.

My clutch tool arrived so now once I've torqued the nut I an bolt on the clutch plate.

Next question
What torque shall I put on the 36mm scat unit, looks well made. Got a torque tool so can easily apply large amounts to it....

Got a a few final bits from Richie today a dizzy block off with AN10 top and a fuel block off. Both of which will act as my only breathers when I got porsche cooled.
And a rear peice of tin


And the block off is getting there for the cooler ( needs some weight loss and smoothing)


Getting close!

Off to change the rear dampeners on an audi a2 now...

[richie]

Cool it all arrived ok and endplay sounds better now

I wouldn't have used grease on seal to get it in, think that will just help it come out but who knows

I torque those Scat gland nuts to 450lbs/ft

cheers Richie

[andy198712]

Cool it all arrived ok and endplay sounds better now

I wouldn't have used grease on seal to get it in, think that will just help it come out but who knows

I torque those Scat gland nuts to 450lbs/ft

cheers Richie

That's a good point... I'll keep an eye on it!
I'll get her done up to 450! Mocked up some tinware today and nearly there! Just need an exhaust now !
I did put the porsche shroud on.... I can't wait to see that working!

[andy198712]

Got it all together and in the car, brought a cheap hideaway to run it in with.... That didn't fit, the muffler had been chopped and moved so it wouldn't work with my header.... So on went the stinger. I've never heard one before..... Wow

So put in the break in oil and the filter and when I came back I already had a leak

I'd forgotten one of the brass plugs right by the bottom left stud (passenger side) I found this after if taken the flywheel and clutch off... And removed the engine.

Next the carb kept flooding as the float valve wasn't rated as high as my current 1200's one and it didn't like my facet pump.... Switched that over and away I went.
Going well, got to the 3 minute mark and the carb started to pop back. Stopped checked over the carb and it was ok. Timining can't shift so was happy that was ok.
Started it back up and it was ok again, minute or two latter it starts ups again and I'm greeted by a puddle of oil on the floor (I'd been in the car watching the rev gauge and oil light. Shut it down.
The bolt On the end of the rocker shaft had come loose, rocker slipped off enough to loose the lash cap and bend the pushrod on number 2 inlet and kick out the push rod tube....
So straightened the push rod, checked it all over and got it back and happy. Started it back up and did my 20 mins between 2000 and 2500 rpm. Went to lower the rpm to around a 1000 but it dropped to 500 then I blipped it back up, but the oil light came on when it dropped so shut it off, dumped the oil and collected my thoughts!!

Feeling truely gutted. Spent years collecting parts and slowly working on this engine.

Thoughts :
I need a new push rod but there from stateside tuning, think there smith brothers? Will ask tomorrow if Stateside will sell me 1 instead of a set of 8 at about £120
The oil came out kinda brown which I don't get.... Flash rust on the crank? I painted in oil and washed the poop out of everything! Maybe it's just me.
The oil light flashin on.... Wondering if this is just as it dropped too low on the rpm or if I did  have enough oil in it? Although it still had 4.5litres in it....
Also is this something that'll just be a minor glitch or will this be the start of the end for that engine...

Hopefully tomorrow brings something good!!
Put a new filter on and 5 litres of millers competition 10-50 oil.
Will see if I can get it idling tomorrow... I don't think the 86b likes a single carb!
Its a 34pict 3 with no venturi and a 160 main(on advice from a chap to runs the same)

[spoolin70]

Hay Andy

I know it's disheartening but try to keep with it. You've come this far and it's only time and money to get it sorted. When ever I see an engine have problems on a stand or a car on a dyno, I always think to myself "could have been a whole lot worse if it happened in the fast lane of the motorway, foot to the floor".

Said the same thing to my mate that had a valve guide come loose during break-in and bent a valve (all new items too).

Did you manage to get it idling and test the oil pressure ?

If it was easy, we'd all be doing it !!
Darren

[andy198712]

Cheers buddy.

That is true!

Got it idling at 1500 rpm but it won't go any lower without dying out yet, which I think must be the idle circuit on the carb.... As it runs and pulls beautifully other then that!

The stinger is crazy loud though! Kinda makes you giggle!

Going to try another oil switch I have laying around and also order a new one, not sure where to get a cheap screw in oil pressure gauge tester... I dont trust my gauge really...  The ones I've seen don't have very good resolution at low pressures seem to start at higher pressures...

Need to contract stateside about new pushrods.
Ordered a quiet pack exhaust.

Hoping the oil pressure is a switch issue, it was just a switching had on and old case of unknown status so....

Also fixed a small oil leak from a full flow fitting on the return part.

We'll see!

[andy198712]

Thinking it over, my oil clearances were good, pump was good, did the Hoover mods for more oiling (so maybe lower pressure from that)

My thoughts are:
Duff oil switch
Oil control valve stuck down maybe from the drilling and plugging, might be a burr or something that's snagged it or....
Restrictive full flow fitting in the return to the case...?

Those are the order I'm going to test things, will see if my at club at work have an oil tester, can hook up my electronic one just to test but I doubt its low pressure accuracy, as it used to flat line at low rpm when hot on my 1200 but the light never used to come on before I swapped it for the gauge, thus my uncertainty of it!

[andy198712]

tried a new pressure switch today.... similar.

its ok on start up, after a short 5-10 minute drive it will come on under about 1250rpm.

going to try and find a proper gauge to double check

on the plus side i stripped and sprayed my single quiet pack today and that can go on today and i don't have to worry about getting nicked on base by the MOD police on my test drives! 

still thinking relief valve, or maybe sandwich plate issue as its when it gets warm... or that return fitting.

I will fix it, and i will enjoy it 

[modnrod]

............and i don't have to worry about getting nicked on base by the MOD police on my test drives! 

From experience they'll just think of something else, so you may as well enjoy it anyway!
 

[andy198712]

............and i don't have to worry about getting nicked on base by the MOD police on my test drives! 

From experience they'll just think of something else, so you may as well enjoy it anyway!
 

There's mod police and there's the navy reggies whom eat their own young 

Fitted the quiet pack today and it does what it says on the tin! probably only last a year but i like it, for an EMPI unit it fits VERY well and it actually a good well thought out kit! and £85.
can now hear the cheeky whine of the straight cuts which makes me smile!

i'm also thinking on the oil front, that it could be all the hoover mods etc will lower my pressure, more flow, less pressure. but will inspect the relief plunger first!

the down side of the quiet pack is you hear every little noise!

[andy198712]

Thankfully stateside do sell them singularly!! So got two pushrods coming in te post

I've got some pinging to tune out of my ignition map later either from the new quiet pack or I can just hear it now

[richie]

Andy

I wouldn't be running it all until finding the problem, stock oil pressure light is only about 3psi and if its coming on then it probably has low oil pressure all the time, at least get some sort of gauge on it to see what it is roughly
Fingers crossed its something simple like a plunger sticking


cheers Richie

[BeetleBug]

Andy

I wouldn't be running it all until finding the problem, stock oil pressure light is only about 3psi and if its coming on then it probably has low oil pressure all the time, at least get some sort of gauge on it to see what it is roughly
Fingers crossed its something simple like a plunger sticking


cheers Richie

X2! Stop running it until you have proper oil pressure. It is after all what keep our engines alive. Check the oil pump lid clearance as well. Super critical!

-BB-

[andy198712]

i'll get it up on ramps tomorrow and check the pressure relief plunger, i could stick my oil pressure gauge on it but i doubt its very accurate, would at least give a rough indication though. and i'll order a pressure gauge test set.

could it be related to the hoover mods and oiling mods giving more flow thus less pressure do you think?

The pump i sanded flat and then set the endplay with the thin gasket, is that what you mean?

cheers

Andy

[andy198712]

well i didn't want to wait, popped the car up and took out the plug (deep sump gets in the way) screw fell out, spring fell out about a litre of oil fell out but no plunger.....
That was jammed hard at the bottom of its bore (open position) tried tapping it up but it wouldn't budge with a hand tapping a screw driver so i ran a tap up inside the plunger which gripped enough for me to wiggle it out.

it was a little rough cast looking so polished it up (sadly i didn't have the nicer one i polished up with me) after a while of that testing it etc i put it back together, started it up and gave 2bar 29psi at idle of about 750rpm (cold)
driving it i get about 1bar 14.5psi per 1000rpm up to about 3.5BAR where it seems to steady out nicely up to about 4.5k rpm (wet and horrible weather to test much more)

idle was holding about 1bar which dropped to about half a bar after some more driving but i doubt the low pressure accuracy of this cheap electric gauge i have, so got a test gauge on order. with this gauge i found it flat lined on my old 1200 at warm idle but it wouldn't turn on the oil light. thus my doubts of it.

But looks like a easy fix hopefully! will fit the nicer plunger at the next oil change and double check it all.

i also adjusted the ignition map and now it will idle at about 900rpm and hold it well, bit higher at times but not much and it is a 34pict 3 feeding a big cam etc so i'm not expecting much till i go FI soon...

Fingers crossed thats it!