3.5 Quart Sump....... Overkill?

[Worm]

Building a 2276 for the Notch and was planning on running my former 1.5 quart sump.  But I've seen these 3.5 qt monsters and wondered what you all thought of them.  Worth it?

2.5 quarts in motor, 3.5 qt sump, full flow lines to filter then to external cooler and fan....... we're talking almost 7 plus quarts of oil!  Damn.  Stick with the 1.5?  Thoughts?

[PIMPPRIDE]

it makes for a nice hefty oil changes  I have them on 3 - type 3 engines... just full flowed it uses 7 quarts... I would guess with full flow & fan your talking 8 or maybe 9 quarts... DOH !  ( I like having the extra oil volume, I can't argue that its 100% beneficial, with the stock cooler & an external cooler was always the plan )

[Dave Rosique]

Scott,
I've used several 3.5's (Berg) over the years with no regrets. Keeping a 2276 cool in a type 3 is going to be tough anyway.. The extra oil volume plus the added surface area of the large sump will aid in cooling.
 

[Zach Gomulka]

Type 3's are more difficult to keep cool than a type one, do everything you can, especially on an engine that large.

But I'd like to see the facts that a deep sump, especially one made out of aluminium and not magnesium, will lower oil temps. More oil is not a bad thing, it will at least take longer for oil to heat up. But like Bill Fisher said, oil is great for picking up heat, but not so good at dissipating it. All things being equal, the aluminium engine cases run hotter than the standard magnesium ones.

IMO a sump is more for quick/fast revving engines so you don't suck the sump dry. As long as your 2276 isn't too wild, I would stick with the 1.5q sump and put a big external cooler on it. I guarantee you will NEED it no matter which size sump you use.

[PIMPPRIDE]

to keep your type 3 cool, you want to have every single piece of factory engine tin in place... this can be hard to do with the lower pushrod tin interfering with most of the type 3 aftermarket headers...

on my 82 x 94 engine, I had an A-1 sidewinder 1-5/8" but the j-tubes are such a tight bend to the cylinder head I ran it without the lower pushrod tin, right now I am changing the exhaust to the CSP Python with heater boxes, as this allows for use of the stock lower tin...

Anthony / ISP WEST

[Worm]

Great info and obviously worth a discussion.  Glad I asked.  Anthony I'll pop in to your shop and make sure I have all the tin.

Thanks Guys.

[Dave Rosique]

Scott,

Look in to "Setrab" oil coolers. Top shelf quality, many different sizes / options.

As Anthony said, run every single piece of factory cooling tin!

While I have no "hard" data regarding the 3.5 qt aluminum sump, I pose the question: What's it going to hurt? I have probably used 20-25 3.5 Berg sumps on various machines over the years ranging from hot street cars to a stroker motor in an early camper bus that the owner used to pull a tent trailer during his summer vacations.

There you have it.. my $.02
 

[Jim Ratto]

I agree with Dave Rosique. I use 3.5qt sump on every motor I've done in last 15 years. Look at oil capacity on any factory high rpm 4 or 6 cylinder.

And I second the plug for Setrab coolers. I have run one on my '67 for over 16 years now, the twin fan design. Even screaming out on the 210 freeway going to Sarge's in August, 105F+ outside, my oil temp will not exceed 185F. This was with 1.4 rockers on stiff springs, 9.9:1, 20W50 and 30mm pump, you know...all the stuff you're told doesn't work.
The Setrab does take up some space under there. Adjusting the clutch cable, getting to driver's side upper engine bolt and getting to trans filler in my car takes some careful swearing and bandaids afterwards.

[DKK Ted]

Well he we go, I also agree with Dave and Jim, more oil IS better, especially a Type III, all the motor's I have built for myself and others, have used the Berg 3 1/2Qt. sumps. Also, I'm using the single fan Seatrab oil cooler, if I had room to use the 2 fan I would have used it, but sold it to, Dave R?? Cause of the Kafer Bar set-up I have, there was no room. But the single still works well, and fits, barely. And Scotts case is a mag case. I know, I'm the one building his motor.  Is going to be sweet!! 

Ted

[Martin S.]

I agree with Dave Rosique. I use 3.5qt sump on every motor I've done in last 15 years. Look at oil capacity on any factory high rpm 4 or 6 cylinder.

And I second the plug for Setrab coolers. I have run one on my '67 for over 16 years now, the twin fan design. Even screaming out on the 210 freeway going to Sarge's in August, 105F+ outside, my oil temp will not exceed 185F. This was with 1.4 rockers on stiff springs, 9.9:1, 20W50 and 30mm pump, you know...all the stuff you're told doesn't work.
The Setrab does take up some space under there. Adjusting the clutch cable, getting to driver's side upper engine bolt and getting to trans filler in my car takes some careful swearing and bandaids afterwards.

Jim, can you please post a pic of your Setrab cooler and it's mounting location?

[pupjoint]

I agree with Dave Rosique. I use 3.5qt sump on every motor I've done in last 15 years. Look at oil capacity on any factory high rpm 4 or 6 cylinder.

And I second the plug for Setrab coolers. I have run one on my '67 for over 16 years now, the twin fan design. Even screaming out on the 210 freeway going to Sarge's in August, 105F+ outside, my oil temp will not exceed 185F. This was with 1.4 rockers on stiff springs, 9.9:1, 20W50 and 30mm pump, you know...all the stuff you're told doesn't work.
The Setrab does take up some space under there. Adjusting the clutch cable, getting to driver's side upper engine bolt and getting to trans filler in my car takes some careful swearing and bandaids afterwards.

Jim, can you please post a pic of your Setrab cooler and it's mounting location?

yes, pics would be great as i am about to mount my single Setrab too.

[Jim Ratto]

Hi guys, I'm going through all my pics on my external hard drive, I know I have one somewhere. For lack of a picture, it's mounted on left of gear box, mounted longitudinally, with fittings pointed left. The fans are below the cooler, they pulll air down through cooler. I made some simple "L" brackets out of old Bugpack trans strap that bolt to luggage area floor with M8 bolts and nylocks To mount cooler ears to "L" brakcets I used 3/8"/24 long bolts with reinforcement steel tubes in between ears of cooler and slid over bolts (keeps ears from getting bent sideways). The Setrab I bought had male -10 fittings, so I bought adapters to -8 for my hoses. They adapters had to be shortened so my friend John Bates milled them I think like .200" on the female side. The cooler is kind of up in a vacuum area so I feed cold air to it from a steel scoop I fabbed that mounts under RH torsion bar. Two 50mm Volvo preheat hoses run from back of shovel-scoop, over trans and to intake side of cooler. Addiing this scoop made a 20F difference on a hot day. Prior to running it, going to Sarge's in high of summer the oil temp would reach 200F with fans on. With scoop and similar weather/rpm/oil etc it does not exceed 180F by my VDO sender/gauge. I added the scoop in 2008 after moving to hotter South Calif from North Calif.
The fans are operated by a toggle switch near steering wheel and a Bosch 40amp relay under rear seat.
If I'm hot in the car and the car's up to temp, I turn them on. If I cool off or oil is under 180F I turn them off.

[Zach Gomulka]

I had my Setrab (single, and later dual pack) mounted horizontally to the left of the trans, in that corner where the frame horn and torsion housing meet. On the same plane as the pan. Fan (thermostatically controlled) was above, drawing air up.

[Bruce]

While I have no "hard" data regarding the 3.5 qt aluminum sump, I pose the question: What's it going to hurt?

I've used a 1.5qt sump forever and never seen anything that suggests more is better.  Never starved it on any 3/4 loop on ramp.  Held it at 6k rpms for 30 sec once, never starved it.  All problems were cured with the 1.5 qt sump, so I see no need to try to cure it more.

The 3.5qt Berg sump is 12lbs.  Empty! 
Adding weight to your car isn't a recipe for speed.  And all that weight on the 6 little studs means it's going to loosen up more than a smaller sump.

[dragvw2180]

 The only negitive with any deep sump is the road clearance, one manhole cover sticking up alittle and my friend ripped his off his engine , it can happen. I would and do run a sump on all my engines unless it is absolutely stock and never revved or cornered  hard. On my new car I have a large sump LOL . On my engine I actually ran the 1 1/2 qt sump out of oil because of the large oil pump/higher oil pressure and RPM's I turned , so I opted for a larger sump and never had any more problems. This is a race car that I will be driving on the street . 

[Dave Rosique]

While I have no "hard" data regarding the 3.5 qt aluminum sump, I pose the question: What's it going to hurt?

I've used a 1.5qt sump forever and never seen anything that suggests more is better.  Never starved it on any 3/4 loop on ramp.  Held it at 6k rpms for 30 sec once, never starved it.  All problems were cured with the 1.5 qt sump, so I see no need to try to cure it more.

The 3.5qt Berg sump is 12lbs.  Empty! 
Adding weight to your car isn't a recipe for speed.  And all that weight on the 6 little studs means it's going to loosen up more than a smaller sump.

Well, it's all about opinions based on experience here right? My real life experience is I have run over 20 3.5 Berg sumps on type 1, 2 & 3 VW's with all different kinds of engine combos for my customers over the years. All of these were daily drivers or weekend warriors. None were drag cars although many saw some track time. I've never had one loosen up although I have repaired / secured a few that others had installed. The extra weight was never a concern on any of the cars I used them on.. The reduced ground clearance is something the driver should be responsible for.
So with that said, especially in Scott's case with a hot stroker motor in a type 3, my opinion is "What's it going to hurt?" 
Cheers 
   

[Bruce]

I've never had one loosen up although I have repaired / secured a few that others had installed.

I've seen lots of loose sumps and heard of lots.  Mine never comes loose even with the punishment in Central America because years ago I did the "Kaforski upgrade".  Take out the M6 studs and tap them to M7.  Then install the studs that formerly held on a stock nose cone.

[dragvw2180]

 Going one step further I use longer bolts installed inside the case as studs, they cannot pull out . I also have never had a loose sump but have dragged a few on a hard launch , LOL  Mike McCarthy

[Critter1]

Going one step further I use longer bolts installed inside the case as studs, they cannot pull out . I also have never had a loose sump but have dragged a few on a hard launch , LOL  Mike McCarthy

Exactly what I see my engine builder do every time.. Run the bolt from inside the case, down. Loctite it in place.. no chance of it pulling out. These are great tips!

[andy198712]

do you cut off the "umbrella" part when you install a deepsump then? tricky to fit the bolt other wise...

[dragvw2180]

 I trim it back so oil can return to the sump more quickly and it does make it easier to install the bolts. Mike McCarthy

[andy198712]

I trim it back so oil can return to the sump more quickly and it does make it easier to install the bolts. Mike McCarthy

Thanks Mike