Anyone with dry sump experience on the type 1 ?

[K-Roc]

Hi my question is related too hard driven street car with thousands of miles per year, ( not just a weekend warrior)

Hi have always had the thinking that our flat 4 valve train was lubricated by the pressure fed oil that comes up the pushrods, but also the oil that is flung up the pushrod tubes to some extent,  After all we know the valve covers fill with oil at a certain RPM...

If we dry sump it the sump in the case is now basically empty so not much oil gets flung up to the valve train so we are relying on only the pressure fed oil that travels up the pushrods,

Is this enough oil to adequately lubricate  the upper valve train and also keep the springs cool ?  ( very important )

would love to hear any thoughts or experienced chime in.

Thanks.

[Taylor]

No experience with dry sumps here Darren but just for information, I have a case that has sleeved lifter bores with the groove for oiling and Pauter rockers with the hole drilled all the way through the adjuster.  When I put it on Roger's dyno I was messing around with some stuff and ended up hitting the starter for a few seconds with the spark plugs out. The valve covers were off and I sprayed oil all over the dyno room from oil going up the pushrods and out the adjuster holes.  It was a remarkable am out of oil for such a short amount of time.

[axam48ida]

I ran a type dry sumped with a stock case for years racing midgets. the rightside head ran cooler than the left side but we ran a spray bar in the rocker cover to cool the valve train and heads.
now years going forward I found that Ray Valero has been drilling small holes in the pushrods about a inch or so from the tip to spray the head and springs to reduce the temps. the head and valve train definately runs cooler but your oil temp increases because it's retaining the heat. therefore a addtional cooler is needed.
back to the midget setup. since we were going in circles we  sometimes would scavenge oil directly from the rocker cover do the amount of oil in the head on high banked tracks.
the dry sump system is like a hyd. system. we found running #10 and #12 on the scavenge side reduced the oil temps rather than running a #8 hose size. we used a 12 or 14 from the tank to them pressure side of the pump and a 10 or eight going into the engine after the pressure relief valve and filter. we scavenged with the #10 or #12 from the pump to another filter and then the cooler/coolers and then back to the tank.
good luck. 
also if you mount the tank above the engine, put a shut off valve to stop the oil from filling up the engine when it sits for a period of time.

Hi my question is related too hard driven street car with thousands of miles per year, ( not just a weekend warrior)

Hi have always had the thinking that our flat 4 valve train was lubricated by the pressure fed oil that comes up the pushrods, but also the oil that is flung up the pushrod tubes to some extent,  After all we know the valve covers fill with oil at a certain RPM...

If we dry sump it the sump in the case is now basically empty so not much oil gets flung up to the valve train so we are relying on only the pressure fed oil that travels up the pushrods,

Is this enough oil to adequately lubricate  the upper valve train and also keep the springs cool ?  ( very important )

would love to hear any thoughts or experienced chime in.

Thanks.

[spanners]

Dry sumping is the holly Grail for circuit racing where oil surge is the killer of expensive motors, it gives total control of engine temperature and oil flow rate and temperature, but like everything else, preparation is key, low oil through leakage will kill the motor same as any wet sump engine, usually from tank surge, the horses for courses rule applies, can you justify,,, the extra weight from all the hardware and 2gallons of oil ?, can you warm this much oil in your cars racing adgenda? Will it make you faster? The exhaust won't clear the physically bigger quality d/s pumps  with the adequate pumping volume and required extra accessory ports for race motors. Most d/s tanks will siphone into the engine during lay up, mine takes 7 days to do so, a flow stop valve with ignition cut can be used, or just pull the plugs out and crank it back out to the tank. Oil supply to the heads is plenty enough for any engine once a big pump is used, run it up at only 5000 rpm with the valve covers off if you need convincing, but I do run spray jets to the valve springs as circuit cars run long and hard and we don't always get proper pre warming time, no complex spray bars are used so nothing to break or go wrong, I groove the rocker bearing and notch the side by the valve spring to pick up oil off the radial grooves on the rocker shafts.
The pro for me is as at the top of this post, but  there is also a power gain from no crank windage and the better temperature control, I've never looked back and recommend d/s  systems for most uses where the rules allow it, hope my input helps you go for it anyway.

[Fiatdude]

CB has a simple dry sump pump that a lot of road racers use -- the major Con for all the systems that are driven from the original oil pump placement is that you have to run a smaller pulley for clearance and therefore you have less cooling air on your engine -- haven't seen a belt driven system on a VW

[K-Roc]

Thanks for all the replys gents...  So here's the dealio...

The motor had been together and dry sumpe'd for the last several years, Small cam with conventional VW rockers, swivel feet, and bolt together shafts... all was well...

This season a fresh motor was built with a K8 and NOS old Autocraft 1.4 Rockers ( the needle bearing type )  So for this type of rocker the oil that comes up the inside of the pushrod, dead heads at the cup of the adjusting screw because the rockers arms are not oil drilled to feed the rocker shaft from the adjusting screw.., the needle bearings rely on a splash/Bath of oil to lubricate just like the pauter Rockers of today.

Anyways we had horrible valve guide and rocker arm wear in 2500 miles that has left me scratching my head... ( the geometry was spot on.... ) So to my eyes it looks like not enough oil can get out of the tip of the pushrod to cup of adjusting screw adequately oil the valve train in this scenereo...

So now Taylors comments on the Pauter through drilled adjusting screws got me thinking, I need more oil spraying around up there...

... I think for the next kick at the can will be to drill a .025" hole in the side of each pushrod just below where the tip presses in, and also we will be switching to conventional bushed and pressure lubricated rocker shafts ALA CB Performance.


Hopefully this will get sufficient oil upstairs to where its needed....
Thanks

[spanners]

The Lifter oil groove should be modified, this directly controls the volume of oil going up the pushrods to the heads, the stock double groove severely limits the DURATION of the oil supply, ie, it is not constant because at the inactive mid point, then again at extremes of lift, the oil port in the case is covered by the lifter, not the oiling groove, I machine the double groove into a wider single groove for 100 PC oiling 100pc of the lifter travel, take a look at the stock hydro lifters for how the factory addressed the need for more oil to keep the hydros quiet, you can go further with the Bob Hoover mod to the right side cam bearing/head oil supply,  again I do the circuit motors this way as we run right high g turns mostly, so the right head struggles with oil while the left one gets centrifuged oil help, it can't hurt to do it, but late Brazilian cases can breakout to fresh air at the base of the cam oil drilling by #2 cylinder, not fun tho it can be welded.

[Udo]

Hi my question is related too hard driven street car with thousands of miles per year, ( not just a weekend warrior)

Hi have always had the thinking that our flat 4 valve train was lubricated by the pressure fed oil that comes up the pushrods, but also the oil that is flung up the pushrod tubes to some extent,  After all we know the valve covers fill with oil at a certain RPM...

If we dry sump it the sump in the case is now basically empty so not much oil gets flung up to the valve train so we are relying on only the pressure fed oil that travels up the pushrods,

Is this enough oil to adequately lubricate  the upper valve train and also keep the springs cool ?  ( very important )

would love to hear any thoughts or experienced chime in.

Thanks.

We run all circuit racing engines with dry sump oil system with no other modification with good results for many years

Udo

[Lids]

the major Con for all the systems that are driven from the original oil pump placement is that you have to run a smaller pulley for clearance and therefore you have less cooling air on your engine

Not true, Salzburg Rally team ran a dry sump that used the stock pulley and it has been re-engineered in the UK.

It was done on a limited run, not sure how many were made, but here is link to the details: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,18970.0.html

[andy198712]

Vwspeedshop sell a pulley kit that let's you keep the stock ratio for the fan

[spanners]

Often the small D/S pulley is a necessity with big high RPM circuit motors to bring the fan speed back down to a safer rpm,  the oil cools better anyway with d/s, so the fan can be run slower for a power gain, the bigger stock sized pulleys suit rally style motors were rough muddy tracks see a lowish ground speed compared to a circuit racing engine, but the motor still needs good cooling at a lower rpm, one reason Salzburg went that rout, and the "momologation" rules of the time would have likely required a stock pulley.