Line bored cases, opinions please!

[leec]

Just picked up an AE case that's been stroker clearenced and bored for 94's and full flow and a sand seal pulley

Initial checks seem to show its in good condition and re-useable (thinking of a 2165 for my new 69!)
The case came with some hardly used bearings which show the case has had a 0.04" (1mm) line bore

Should this be a concern, I was considering using it but don't want to build it up if its going to cause issues?

Lee

[LGK]

Hi Lee,

You should start to make sure that both surfaces are clean and there's no damage on them,after that you torque down ONLY the 4 nuts on the outside of the 6 big studs,and check if the case is closed or open on the middle saddles...if you can slide a paper or a feelergauge at 0.05 between both casehalves on the centerweb,you better choose another option.Don't put any O-rings inside the case over the 6 big studs to do the check !!

Rgds Steve

[leec]

Great,
Thank for the advice. Will do some checks ASAP.
Is a 1mm line bore exceptable in a street motor?

[LGK]

For me it is,as long as the case is not warped,and no signs of being overheated.When the machinist is doing a perfect job on the lineboring,there shouldn't be a problem.When we are lineboring a type 1 case for using type 4 bearings,and the job is done correctly,there's no problem either,and here we talk 250Hp + engines.

Good luck.

[Bruce]

My engine's case has been line bored. It's got just over 150k km on it.  Still runs great, except for the oil leaks

[BeetleBug]

From Gene Berg;

I tested 100 line bored cases in stock 1600cc engines. Over 80% had low oil pressure when normal temperature was reached. This often occurred in less than 5,000 miles. Most of them never performed well and got poor mileage.If nothing else, use your common sense. When you use up 75, 80, 90% of the life of the part why put it back into service and ask it to take more stress and strain than it did when it was new? Don't spend a bundle for machine work on an old worn out case and expect it to give the service of a new one? It is your gamble. What is it worth to you to know it is good for 100% of its life rather than 10% or 20%?

-BB-

[LGK]

Hi Carl,

Not saying that Gene Berg his experience hasn't any value,contrary,but what do you want to make clear? Just don't linebore at all?Never or...?

We should agree that not everything in GENE's books still stands these days,that said i'm still thankful for what he did,and i'm not ashamed to say i've read his books more then once 
I've also been very lucky to spend lot's of time together with Doug Berg at the pool in the back of Gene's & Dee's house when i lived their for 3 weeks,i'll never forget those times & what he told me about all their testing and experiences with different levels of engine & tranny-building.I really regret Doug is hiding himself from the net,wondering what he's up these days.This guy had some knowledge,i can assure you.Sonic Muffin rules!

Steve

[BeetleBug]

Hi Carl,

Not saying that Gene Berg his experience hasn't any value,contrary,but what do you want to make clear? Just don't linebore at all?Never or...?

Steve

Hi Steve,

Nope, I`m not saying anything actually. I quoted a legend that claims he tested 100 line bored cases and found that over 80% of them had issues. I thought that was worth the quote and perhaps of value for those considering a line bored case

[LGK]

Hi Carl,

Not saying that Gene Berg his experience hasn't any value,contrary,but what do you want to make clear? Just don't linebore at all?Never or...?

Steve

Hi Steve,

Nope, I`m not saying anything actually. I quoted a legend that claims he tested 100 line bored cases and found that over 80% of them had issues. I thought that was worth the quote and perhaps of value for those considering a line bored case

Cristalclear Carl & I agree with you about the quote,it's up to them to take decisions...

[Zach Gomulka]

He was trying to sell cases! Back then they were cheap insurance. Sorry, but I don't know of anyone who has had anywhere near similar results with line bored cases.
As long as it is properly machined and built, your .040" over be fine. Will you get full life out of it? Maybe not, but you'll get a lot more than 5,000 miles!

On line bored cases it is extra important to make sure the oil galley holes line up with the bearings properly.

[Erlend / bug66]

Was the lineboring equpment different before?

Sloppy work on the 80 cases?

Why should a linebored case give lower pressure?

[spanners]

Was the lineboring equpment different before?

Sloppy work on the 80 cases?

Why should a linebored case give lower pressure?

Most engine shops just line bore, the case halves are not faced as they are (were) at the factory, an internal oil leak can result in the poor oil pressure, Or the bearing crush factor is too high and the bearings are distorted because the case facings  are fretted and they don't contact each other, exactly why the o/e line bore included case plaining. If you get lucky you may get a only half scrap case with some oil pressure, but a good case can still be had with aftermarket line boring, say a low mileage motor that spun a bearing, it would still have case half mateing and the correct bearing crush factor, as wisely said above, torque the case and look for gaps internally between the main bearing saddles.

[mr horsepower]

Hi lee i can just say use youre eyes hand tools an most important youre feelin on this.
If the case has a lot of miles on it , why is that?
And why do most cases don t get that ##
learn from both side s and youre good
good luck
gr henri

Just picked up an AE case that's been stroker clearenced and bored for 94's and full flow and a sand seal pulley

Initial checks seem to show its in good condition and re-useable (thinking of a 2165 for my new 69!)
The case came with some hardly used bearings which show the case has had a 0.04" (1mm) line bore

Should this be a concern, I was considering using it but don't want to build it up if its going to cause issues?

Lee

[Arnoud]

Maybe send it over to these guys :
http://youtu.be/Nr4YqLQPfLQ

[Bruce]

From Gene Berg;

I tested 100 line bored cases in stock 1600cc engines. Over 80% had low oil pressure when normal temperature was reached. This often occurred in less than 5,000 miles. Most of them never performed well and got poor mileage.

I guess I got lucky with my engine.
 

[kb]

Maybe send it over to these guys :
http://youtu.be/Nr4YqLQPfLQ

That is impressive!

[Jeff68]

I don't think Gene Berg was trying to sell cases. He could have line bored cases just like other shops and sold line bored cases too. He probably could've done the line boring for less money and made more money too. I'm not sure, but at the time I think a new case wasn't much more $$ than what it would cost for all of the machine work on a used one so that might be another part of the reason for his recommendation.

Buying a new case is always better but new cases are expensive. If you know that that the case wasn't overheated before (warped) than I think you have a good chance of having good results with it. Have the critical features measured if Ok roll the dice!

How much money are all the parts costing that are going in to the build? Give it some thought.....If you're spending 3 to 4 thousand (or more) to build an engine, buying a new case seems like good sense to me. That's what I did.  At some point I'm going to build another engine with a bunch of used parts that I have in my garage, I have an old case that "looks" as if it wasn't overheated and I plan to use it. Since the engine is being built on the cheap I'm not too worried about the results as the engine will be a spare.

[spanners]

Mag alloy embrittles with overheat, just one big overheat weakens it, if it has had an ongoing overheating history, it will be unusably brittle and ANY stud can pull with that nice 'click' they do when they pull, part of any used case check is over torquing ALL studs at the pre build,
head studs need to hold at 35 ft lb, if they are to be raced, if they pull at that, you have saved much grief later in the build or worse, when the motor is in the car, 10mm stud cases are more prone to pulling, which is why 8mm studs superceded them. Another common fail is the cooler bracket stud, torque it good to 16lb/ft BEFORE the proper build, they are easy to helicoil if they pull, the hole is blind and they usually hold when repaired because  the bigger o/d of the helicoil = more strength.

[neil68]

In fairness to Gene Berg, he also commented further that if you must use an align bored case, then check it carefully and think about the intended application. IIRC, he joked about the analogy of marrying a 70-year-old, saying that you probably won't get as many years of marriage.

Bottom line as stated by others, check carefully before spending the money to machine a used case.

[jaqo]

Buying a new case is not easy really. Last two autolinea alu cases I got needed line boring! One had 0.05 mm taper in the saddles and 0.1 variation between different saddles, on both of them there was not enough crush on the bearings. Other new mag vw case was also out of spec. Pulley bore is notoriously to big in them. ALWAYS check new cases. New bearings often do not have proper dimensions. Never just stick them in without checking

Line boring is fine IF you also machine the mating surfaces. After such an operation you often end up with standard (no oversize) bearing dimensions, oil pump bore is like new, cam bearing saddles are new etc. It's relatively cheaply (<200 euros I think) available here (I can do it in 2 or maybe 3 different machineshops in Warsaw) so it has to be available elsewhere?

[Bruce]

.., part of any used case check is over torquing ALL studs at the pre build,
head studs need to hold at 35 ft lb, if they are to be raced,

Sorry, but that's foolish advice.
Put 35 ftlbs on the studs and they are much more likely to pull where they wouldn't if you stayed to stock torque.

[spanners]

.., part of any used case check is over torquing ALL studs at the pre build,
head studs need to hold at 35 ft lb, if they are to be raced,

Sorry, but that's foolish advice.
Put 35 ftlbs on the studs and they are much more likely to pull where they wouldn't if you stayed to stock torque.

OK, fair comment, you must have more knowledge than I do, so perhaps you can Explain to me why this is foolish advice?
Then a couple of questions.
Tell me What torque value you think a a hot 10mm head stud stock VW engine attains? 
ThenTell me what torque value a Turbocharged motor at 2 bar boost will pull the head bolts too.
Best regards, Spanners.