Starting over

[Beastofabug]

Hi guys I'm starting from scratch with my engine. The case I've got is out as are the pots and barrels the rest is all good. for the story so far http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,24012.0.html and http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1072593
This is my first performance build, biggest I've built is a 1641cc
My new years resolution was to get back to doing it all myself admittedly was expecting to be doing this but hay ho
So what I have is
CB044 Wedge port heads 42mm inlet, 37.5 exhaust, 66cc
Weber's 48 IDF’s
SCAT 84mm Stroke Counterweighted Crank already balanced  with a gene berg 7.5lbs pulley
CB Performance H Rods 5.500" Chevy journal forged
Manton cut to length chromoly pushrods
Steel straight cut cam gear set
SCAT Pro Comp 1.4:1 ratio rocker arms

Gearbox
3.88 ring and pinion,
T25 modified mainshaft and 1st gear,
close 3rd and 4th gears,
welded hubs,
steel forks,
super diff and HD side plate
rhino case
sway away race shafts

I'm going to replace the 94mm Mahle pots and barrels with the same and keep the others as spares
Need advise on new case ?
what to go for ?
Should I change the cam ? the car is primarily road use and then a bit of fun on the strip when I can get there
What CR should I be looking for ?

[BeetleBug]

My 2 cents;

Those CB heads have huge ports and they need quite a lot of compression and cam to come alive. I have tried them with everything from a Engle FK8, to a FK46, a FK47 and a FK89. From 10.2 CR to 12.8 CR. They first came alive with the FK47 and was really fun with the FK89 and above 12 CR. Still pump gas.

My suggestion would be:

- FK89
- 12:1 CR
- Short manifolds that you make sure to open up so that they do not work as an venturi.
- Auto Linea alu engine case

Good luck with your project!

-BB-

[Beastofabug]

THX BB

[Beastofabug]

What are the pro's and con's on Ali V Mag cases ?

just check the valves 42 / 37.5 not 44 / 37.5

[BeetleBug]

What are the pro's and con's on Ali V Mag cases ?

just check the valves 42 / 37.5 not 44 / 37.5

Alu:

Pros: stronger, more support, more rigid. Need no work in order to fit the crank
Cons: heavier and runs a little warmer

Are the heads "out of the box" or modified in any way? I would still choose a fairly big cam and high compression with the wedge design.

Best rgs
BB

[Beastofabug]

I don't know about the heads I know they were cc'd at stateside tuning they look polished and ported but they came on the engine.

[BeetleBug]

66cc chamber is on the big side and even with a 1mm deck height you will not get more than 9:1 CR. Get the chamber down to 45cc + 1.2mm deck heigt = 11.9:1 CR. Match that with a FK87 or a FK89 and the tricks already mentioned and you will have a really strong engine.

-BB-

[Udo]

What are the pro's and con's on Ali V Mag cases ?

just check the valves 42 / 37.5 not 44 / 37.5

The mag cases specialy the new ones are better if you want a case that has the right diameter and straightness in the center bearings . On the alu cases you must have good luck :-(
I still love them and only work with mag case .
Udo

[Beastofabug]

have ordered a cc measuring kit to check but one of the heads has 66cc written on it in maker

[Beastofabug]

looking at a CB Performance Super case Bubble top any good ?

[Martin S.]

Can you please post a pic of the heads showing the combustion chambers? I'd like to see how they got the 66cc's.

[Beastofabug]

Pics of one of the heads

[BeetleBug]

Nice!

The chambers are untouched and you can still see the CNC marks. You will have to flycut the heads in order to get the compression to where you want it to be in order to build a crisp engine. OR, keep as is and build a turbo engine with 300 - 400hp 

-BB-

[Beastofabug]

Thx BB I'll look in to that

[Jon]

On the alu cases you must have good luck :-(

Is this still a problem?

[dannyboy]

i have a street engine using wedgeports ,its 10.5cr uses a engle 120 cam 1.1 rockers and 45mm tbs  makes 170hp and a nice smooth delivery of power  in a full weight vert it ran 14.4 on the track with 2.2 second 60fts as it was hoping and spining up first gear due to it not being built for track ,if its primarily for the street thats a nice combo in my opinion and it used a autolinea ally case

[dannyboy]

it was a bit of a leftovers motor as i used an old 2276 race engine that had the heads and cr but had a fk87 and 1.4 rockers  i had the cam and 1.1 rockerson the shelve so they were used as i wanted a docile motor for the street ,but it goes amazingly well and add a shot of gas and it would be a monster again on the track 

[dragvw2180]

Nice!

The chambers are untouched and you can still see the CNC marks. You will have to flycut the heads in order to get the compression to where you want it to be in order to build a crisp engine. OR, keep as is and build a turbo engine with 300 - 400hp 

-BB-

X2    I would CC the heads on all chambers and see where you would be engine size wise with around 8.2 compression.  I really enjoy my turbo engine and I love to give people  rides in my street car. LOL    Mike McCarthy

[Udo]

bolt the case together with the right torque and messure the diameter at the main bearings . And you must cut the heads 1,5mm down for 10:1

Udo

looking at a CB Performance Super case Bubble top any good ?

[Jim Ratto]

Big chambers, plus looks like the heads have a step cut into them to reduce CR even further, plus copper gasket.
This, all added up, takes away from tuning of engine and good response (for non turbo application) and can make motor sluggish.

If you leave big chambers as they are, you should look into some type of projected nose spark plug, in order to improve flame propagation in those big chambers. What was your deck height?

[Beastofabug]

they're as taken off the old engine
deck height unknown at mo as changing the case, pots and barrels
mainly just doing the theory work at the mo
New to building a performance engine myself so doing a lot of homework

[Zach Gomulka]

Measure the depth of the step in the head.

[Beastofabug]

depth of the step is 14.5mm

[Martin S.]

Jim is right about that chamber taking away from your results, and even tho he says for non turbo, every effort was made with my turbo engine to keep those chambers as small as possible. For example, to get to the target cr for the turbo, he dished the pistons in a bathtub shape. That meant less had to be taken from the chamber and the bathtub shape is to match the factory chamber shape keep the squish areas intact. Those are the flat areas on either side of the chamber. Look at these pics to see what I mean. Note the squish bands are untouched where yours are cut away which is not ideal.

[BeetleBug]

I totally agree with what Mr Ratto wrote above here. But that said, the parts that you have now collected will be a HUGE step in performance compared to your old 1641ccm engine even if you choose to bolt them together as is. Yes, the engine will be lazy and sluggish (read ineffective) but it will produce the average 160 - 170hp just like most other 2,3 liter engines. It will also peak at 5500 rpms due to the bad match of parts. Is there actually a more boring engine out there than a 2332 with wedgeport heads, big beefs and IDA`s?

With a little effort on the manifolds, a little higher CR combined with a nicely match cam you will have a crisp engine that pulls really strong and produces around 200hp. What you have done is to utilize the potential of your parts and that is just so much more fun than bolting them together.

Best rgs
BB

[Beastofabug]

Might be an idea to bolt together with lower CR and bhp
learn to drive it before going full out straight away then I will be able to upgrade and see the differences
But it's all theory at the mo looks like I'm getting the new toys next weekend so I can start the build

[Jim Ratto]

depth of the step is 14.5mm

my advice:

have a machine shop at least machine the step out, and if you and the shop agree, flycut the heads down until the chambers are 53-57cc. How is this car geared and what are your "be honest with yourself" intentions with the car?

Running a large cam comes with side effects, mostly faster wear of parts which don't just "bolt on" when it comes time to replace them. Changing guides, especially in those heads without bosses in ports, can be tricky. And guides wear, faster with increased heat and lift and valve acceleration. A big cam might require high spring pressure, and spring pressure is a huge contributor to engine heat.

If your intentions are fast street (fast enough to scare most guys behind the wheel of a Bug) my advice is:
set up chambers and deck to get you right around 9.8-10.0:1 (I don't know your displacement of engine) my opinion is you want as much squish area in the head that won't impede flow.
Run a cam like FK10 with 1.4, or what I really like for street, Pauter R6E8 with 1.25. I have used the Pauter with regular dual VW springs set at 165lb at seat and around 310lb over nose (I set springs up with .050-.070 travel to coil bind, each valve, at full lift). Nothing that's going to kill parts.
Depending on cc of engine, 45-48mm carbs with appropriate venturi for your displacement.
Same story on exhaust, depends on cc size of motor.

have fun

Jim

[Jim Ratto]

sorry just saw you're building 94 x 84, 2332 cc
42 intake valve in conventional oval port is going to make peak power @ 5700rpm, considering you use a K8-ish cam (or 86B Web). It will rev to about 6200.

The K10 or Pauter cam will increase rpm range, probably 400-500 rpm. and I doubt, back to back, they would give up anything on lower rev response. A lot of that depends on how you set up ignition advance and emulsion tubes. Those 48IDFs are easy to tune.  They probably have 40mm vents in them, which is probably perfect for what I suggested above.

Jim

[Zach Gomulka]

depth of the step is 14.5mm

That's the wrong measurement (or a typo?)... Measure the shallower step, between your copper head gasket and the chamber. Usually between 1-1.5mm.

Remove the copper head gasket as well, it is possible there is a step under it as well.

[Beastofabug]

depth of the step is 14.5mm

my advice:

have a machine shop at least machine the step out, and if you and the shop agree, flycut the heads down until the chambers are 53-57cc. How is this car geared and what are your "be honest with yourself" intentions with the car?

Running a large cam comes with side effects, mostly faster wear of parts which don't just "bolt on" when it comes time to replace them. Changing guides, especially in those heads without bosses in ports, can be tricky. And guides wear, faster with increased heat and lift and valve acceleration. A big cam might require high spring pressure, and spring pressure is a huge contributor to engine heat.

If your intentions are fast street (fast enough to scare most guys behind the wheel of a Bug) my advice is:
set up chambers and deck to get you right around 9.8-10.0:1 (I don't know your displacement of engine) my opinion is you want as much squish area in the head that won't impede flow.
Run a cam like FK10 with 1.4, or what I really like for street, Pauter R6E8 with 1.25. I have used the Pauter with regular dual VW springs set at 165lb at seat and around 310lb over nose (I set springs up with .050-.070 travel to coil bind, each valve, at full lift). Nothing that's going to kill parts.
Depending on cc of engine, 45-48mm carbs with appropriate venturi for your displacement.
Same story on exhaust, depends on cc size of motor.

have fun

Jim

hi jim
the gearbox is (3.78) (2.06) (1.26) (0.89) 1st to 4th with a T25 modified main shaft and 1st gear
The car is my Toy not a daily, so cruise to the shows get on the track have some straight line fun and hopefully drive home Santapods only an hour away
looks like the heads are out the box cb044 wedge ports 42/37.5 or 44/37.5 not to sure but believe it these