Ø100mm cylinders that fit WBX case?

[Peter S]

I'm in the process of collecting parts for my new street/strip engine.

It's going to be based on a WBX case with an 82mm crank (welded WBX from DPR) and, hopefully, JPM cylinder heads.

My first intention was to go for a 4" bore, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense to go for a slightly smaller bore. Why not Ø100mm? It's used by Porsche, It's a nice round number (this is after all a "millimetric" engine) and gives you more room between the WBX pin bolt pattern for clearance and/or a thicker wall cylinder.

Is there a manufacturer of a good quality Ø100mm cylinder that will fit a WBX case? Some machining is OK.

I know that AA Performance has a cylinder that could have worked, but it's only available in Ø101,6mm and from what I have heard (from several people in the VW industry) they are not really up to the standard needed when building a high performance engine.

Pauter has a rather pricey 4" billet cylinder used by a friend of mine with good results, but it's not available in any other bore. I find this strange since they are tailor made to order and, I suppose, in house.

Are there other suppliers that I can turn to?

If I choose to go the easy way (Ø101,6mm bore), are there other suppliers of cylinders than Pauter and AA?

[MeXX]

Dear Peter

Check out:

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,9948.msg153602.html#msg153602

MeXX

[Peter S]

Thanks Mexx!

I'm very familiar with the "4 inch bore thread" but it doesn't really answer the questions I have.

The only barrel mentioned and shown in the thread (beside your gorgeous Siamese cylinders) is the AA and, as I wrote, they are not the prefered choise. I'm searching for a Ø100mm barrel that, without or with reasonable amount of machining, will fit the WBX case.

I know I'm making it difficult for myself by going for a Ø100mm barrel, but isn't going your own way half the fun?

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I'm even considering making the cylinders myself just to be able to have them exactly as I want, but finding the right material and someone willing to machine them for a reasonable cost is difficult.

[dangerous]

Autocraft's old cast cylinders, to suit a stud patter close to the water boxer,
were available from sizes 98mm and up.
Not sure they are available any more,
but a set of old used 98's could easily work.
Search old speedway midget racers, who might have old 98's under their benches.

Autocraft's new cylinders by LA Sleeve company, is also an option.

[Eddie DVK]

Some type 4 guys use Deutz 100mm cilinders they are off an aircooled engine also, they have very thick walls, you just have to modify the lenght and the holes for case studs patern.




Guy in Denmark who sells them finished.
He is on here sometimes, but mostly on facebook : https://www.facebook.com/pages/GetBackOnTrack/170137546413331

Hope this helps

[PH1303]

If you have your mind set for 100 mm barrels, then why not go for Porsche 964 100 mm nicasil barrels:

http://bugfans.de/forum/wbx-fremdmotoren/type-2400ccm-t1007.html

Expensive, i know...

However, my own opinion is that 96 or 97 mm cylinders must be the most optimum big barrels for the WBX engine. Limbach 2400 airplane engines is fitted with 82x97 mm combination, so it must work well since it is approved for airplanes.

/Peter

[karl h]

i have limbach 97s, the best barrel for a street engine imho
but you cant use their pistons because the clerance ist too big, no way around custom pistons.

[Udo]

Deutz Cylinder are very good quality but a lot of work .

Udo

[Peter S]

Autocraft's old cast cylinders, to suit a stud patter close to the water boxer,
were available from sizes 98mm and up.
Not sure they are available any more,
but a set of old used 98's could easily work.
Search old speedway midget racers, who might have old 98's under their benches.

Autocraft's new cylinders by LA Sleeve company, is also an option.

The Autocraft barrels seem to be an interesting option. I don't know anything about them and the quality. Are they made exclusively for them?
The crappy "thumbnail" picture on the website doesn't tell you much about how they look. What pin bolt pattern do they use?

According to their website they offer a Ø101,6mm and a Ø96,5mm piston/cylinder kit. If the Ø96,5mm barrels is based on the same casting as the Ø101,6mm I assume they would be possible to bore to Ø100mm. I will try and get in contact with them and see what they say.

Finding a set of used old Ø98mm barrels would be nice and have them bored to Ø100mm but that depend on the outer diameter of them and if they are thick enough to allow that.
The idea of going for a Ø100mm barrel instead of Ø101,6mm was to have a slightly thicker cylinder wall and a more stable barrel. If by any chance someone has a used Ø98mm set for sale, send me a PM :-)

Some type 4 guys use Deutz 100mm cilinders they are off an aircooled engine also, they have very thick walls, you just have to modify the lenght and the holes for case studs patern.

Guy in Denmark who sells them finished.
He is on here sometimes, but mostly on facebook : https://www.facebook.com/pages/GetBackOnTrack/170137546413331

Hope this helps

I actually have a set of used Ø100mm Deutz cylinders in good condition. I bought them with the intension of having them machined for this upcoming engine, but realized that, as Udo wrote, they need A LOT of machining to fit the WBX case.

Since they are so big and have a pin bolt pattern way larger than the WBX case, they seem to be better suited for the type 4 case.
Also, when doing the machining needed to make them fit a WBX case, they will most likely be distorted and need to be machined to a larger bore.

For rigidity of the barrel, being forced to machine opened slots for the pin bolts also make them weaker and more prone to flex .
It would be great to have a barrel with large od cooling fins and have holes (instead of slots) with material outside the holes helping out to support the rigidity of the barrel.

If you have your mind set for 100 mm barrels, then why not go for Porsche 964 100 mm nicasil barrels:

http://bugfans.de/forum/wbx-fremdmotoren/type-2400ccm-t1007.html

Expensive, i know...

However, my own opinion is that 96 or 97 mm cylinders must be the most optimum big barrels for the WBX engine. Limbach 2400 airplane engines is fitted with 82x97 mm combination, so it must work well since it is approved for airplanes.

/Peter

i have limbach 97s, the best barrel for a street engine imho
but you cant use their pistons because the clerance ist too big, no way around custom pistons.

I have seen Porsche nicasil barrels being used but they are pricey and the material in itself is a disadvantage. I was recommended to stay away from aluminium/nicasil.
They perform well on an engine with over head cams yes, but on an engine like ours with push rods, they make valve play a problem when the engine gets warm (aluminium expand more than cast iron).

The Limbach barrel is interesting. Are they cast iron barrels or aluminium/nicasils? I suspect they will cost you an arm and a leg? Do you have any more information about them? pistons isn't a problem, I will order them custom made from CP Pistons.

[Udo]

Limbach are alu nikasil . I have a set of used Deutz cylinders 97mm that must get bored to 98 for WBX . =Price is 400 euros :-)

Udo

[karl h]

you have to run aluminum pushrods with nikies, but that is no problem.
i can sometimes get these, but not very often

[Peter S]

Limbach seem to be a nice barrel, but most certainly out of reach pricewise if I'm to buy them new.

I have also, as I wrote, been recommended not to use aluminium/nikasil barrels even with aluminium push rods because of problem with valve play when the engine is warm.
Out of curiosity, how much does the valve play differ on engines using nikasil barrels compared to using cast iron (aluminium push rods in both cases) when it gets up to operating temperature?

I have been measuring on my Ø100mm Deutz barrels this past weekend and come to the conclusion that despite all the work, they seem to be the way to go.
All Deutz cylinders I have seen, like mine, are at least Ø100mm in bore. If I'm correct, they are from "912" engines. In what smaller bore are they available and what are these engine types called?

Udo, the barrel you have for offer (Ø97mm), what are they from (engine type) and are they the same casting as the larger Ø100mm barrels (same outer dimensions/diameters and therefore possible to bore to Ø100mm)?

The barrels your are offering, are they untouched and sold "as is" with all machining left to do?

[RMS Boxer Service]

Way not go for 86 mm stroke?? DPR don't list the 86 mm WBX crank online, but he do make them.
I have ordered two and they both was the good old DPR quality  . Durability is no problem, the
engine I had in for service made 270+hp.

/Rolf

[Peter S]

Way not go for 86 mm stroke?? DPR don't list the 86 mm WBX crank online, but he do make them.
I have ordered two and they both was the good old DPR quality  . Durability is no problem, the
engine I had in for service made 270+hp.

/Rolf

The reason for going for an 82mm crank is that's what DPR had in stock when a friend of mine visited the states in November and bought parts.
Even though you can go for longer strokes, I think it might be wise and settle for a slightly smaller stroke and not be on the limit (the same reasoning as my plan on going for a bore of Ø100mm instead of the more conventional Ø101,6mm).

My initial plan was to buy a used Okrasa WBX stroker crank with Porsche journals and offset grind them to 2" for more stroke and availability of rods.
Unfortunately that crank was sold before my contact in Germany had a chance to buy it on my behalf, so I had to go with plan B.

[Udo]

Don't cut an Okrasa crank down for more stroke, it will break on the rod bearing surface ...

Udo

[Torben Alstrup]

IMO there is nothing wrong with the AA 4 inchers as such. But they do need a slave hone prior to installation.

I have some sets on the shelf if you want to go that route.

Deutz cylinders - are - a better solution, as they are very strong. But it is a MASSIVE job to get them to fit a WBX case and matching heads.

964 cylinders are very nice and the choice if you want to go left lane racing. But also kinda pricey before it all ends.

T

[GetBackOnTrack]

We specialise in Deutz liners.

GBOT.dk

[spoolin70]

How do Duetz compare to Pauter ? Do they have the same longevity/strength ?

Plus, don't enter gbot.de (just done it by mistake) - Bad things come up 

(Cue lots of people having a look haha)