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Author Topic: R/P Klingelnberg vs. Gleason  (Read 11736 times)
folkevogn
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« on: February 02, 2016, 11:38:54 am »

I know there is a third manufacturer as well called Oerlikon, but from what I have read their were primarily made for the Australian marked. I been reading about the different R/P's trying to find out which one of the original ones is the best for a drag race gearbox. From what I was told the Klingelnberg was the best option, but after reading old threads in other forums the story seems to be that Gleason is the best 3.88 but Klingelnberg has the best 4.12 and 4.37. Looking at Weedle's web site, they use Klingelnberg 3.88(or at least refers to) for their HD version(and 4 times the price). Little bit confused, can someone share some of their experience and enlighten me on this subject?

I'm rebuilding my box at the moment using my old 3.88 Klingelnberg. It has some small cracks at the big end of the pinion teeth but should holder another round. The pinion shaft has a c-clips instead of a nut on the 4th gear end so I have started my search for the best original R/P with a nut so i can put in a solid spacer under 4th gear and use a thrust washer between 4th gear and the intermediate house next time a have to rebuild my gearbox.

Best regards

Folke Vogn
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11.96 @ 180kmh - SCC 2013 Grin
dangerous
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Posts: 269


« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 12:28:06 pm »

Oerlikon, Klingelnberg and Gleason are the brand of MACHINE that makes the gears, and hence the tooth form.

VW Australia, DID have Oerlikon machines, and manufactured 4.375 (quite common 1966 and 1967) 6 and 8 bolt sets with key style 4th gears.
They had a very small module size, so not super strong, but pretty good when used with a good billet side cover.

They also made some much stronger "O" 4.125 sets,
but for keyed 4ths, unlike the later German "O" sets found in 'things' and some type 3's.

Weddle has Albins-Australia make their 'racing' sets on a Klingelnberg machine,
from a material and heat treatment that is much stronger than the original VW material. case hardened EN36A material from memory.

Arguably, the Klingelnberg tooth form is better for high load, or torque applications,
This is why it was used in some buses, type 3s.

K teeth are generally thicker up near the heel of the pinion,
which is where the contact pattern moves to under load.

The reason the Gleason '388' is preferred,
is that it has a thicker module tooth size than the same ratio in K,
and the G3.88 is much more common than the German K3.88.

The K388 German tooth form is still pretty good!

But please use the best side cover you can find ,
and don't use a gear set that has cracks!!!!! Smiley
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 12:30:34 pm by dangerous » Logged
folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 13:46:51 pm »

Oerlikon, Klingelnberg and Gleason are the brand of MACHINE that makes the gears, and hence the tooth form.

VW Australia, DID have Oerlikon machines, and manufactured 4.375 (quite common 1966 and 1967) 6 and 8 bolt sets with key style 4th gears.
They had a very small module size, so not super strong, but pretty good when used with a good billet side cover.

They also made some much stronger "O" 4.125 sets,
but for keyed 4ths, unlike the later German "O" sets found in 'things' and some type 3's.

Weddle has Albins-Australia make their 'racing' sets on a Klingelnberg machine,
from a material and heat treatment that is much stronger than the original VW material. case hardened EN36A material from memory.

Arguably, the Klingelnberg tooth form is better for high load, or torque applications,
This is why it was used in some buses, type 3s.

K teeth are generally thicker up near the heel of the pinion,
which is where the contact pattern moves to under load.

The reason the Gleason '388' is preferred,
is that it has a thicker module tooth size than the same ratio in K,
and the G3.88 is much more common than the German K3.88.

The K388 German tooth form is still pretty good!

But please use the best side cover you can find ,
and don't use a gear set that has cracks!!!!! Smiley

Thanks alot! Good info!

I'm using full circle side cover(Weddle), but I'm considering putting one on the other side as well and run a bolt through from side to side(through the ribs on the underside where the diff housing meets the tunnel). I've only seen this on Rhino boxes and I'm a little afraid to weaken the housing by doing this to an original housing? Do you have any thought or experience concerning this?

I'm well aware of the risk of running with cracks in the pinion gear Roll Eyes From what I've read this is almost unavoidable with the original ones and many people continue to use them with cracks as long as their small. I'm no expert so I follow other peoples guidelines and try to learn from their experience  Roll Eyes Your not making this any easier for me  Wink Grin I think my plan will be to use this for as long as it holds and save money for a HD Weddle.

Best regards

Folke Vogn     
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11.96 @ 180kmh - SCC 2013 Grin
dangerous
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Posts: 269


« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 22:13:02 pm »

I only do the through stud on Rhino and Autocraft cases, and use billet, not cast side covers.
You will weaken a standard case if you drill it there.

The "White Rhino" cases are VERY strong, and quite affordable.

As a minimum I would step up to some 15AF head nuts and washers torqued to 25lbs-ft.
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folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2016, 08:02:44 am »

Thanks for the advice! I will use AF15 nuts and washer(and no through stud). The "White Rhino" is definitely affordable, just ordered it now  Smiley First step on a new tranny.

Do you use an original gear carrier or is there a better alternative? Looking at the article from VW Trends in 1988 they used a HD gear carrier called "elephant". I've been searching for something similar without any luck.

Best regards

Folke Vogn
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11.96 @ 180kmh - SCC 2013 Grin
dangerous
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Posts: 269


« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 11:04:06 am »

https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000287/1001968

Definitely do the through stud if you get a white rhino.
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Bruce
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Posts: 1417


« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 11:41:56 am »

I'm well aware of the risk of running with cracks in the pinion gear Roll Eyes From what I've read this is almost unavoidable with the original ones and many people continue to use them with cracks as long as their small.  
Installing a gear with cracks is playing Russian Roulette.
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folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 14:32:25 pm »

I'm well aware of the risk of running with cracks in the pinion gear Roll Eyes From what I've read this is almost unavoidable with the original ones and many people continue to use them with cracks as long as their small.  
Installing a gear with cracks is playing Russian Roulette.

I know Bruce, I will see if I can find good used one before i have to put it back together. if not, I will find out if the hammer hits the empty holes in the barrel at the track. Probably just going to attend a couple of races this season so if it brakes before the end of the season, I can start on the new tranny earlier than planned :-)

Mvh

Folke Vogn 
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11.96 @ 180kmh - SCC 2013 Grin
folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2016, 15:08:49 pm »

Read somewhere that the manufacturers rolles the R/P gears back and forth to find the spot where i makes the least sound and that the number describing the spot is printed on the R/P(Trying to find the quote). Ever heard of this?

Best regards

Folke Vogn 
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11.96 @ 180kmh - SCC 2013 Grin
Bruce
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2016, 09:36:07 am »

Early R&Ps had dimensional info etched or engraved on them to tell you how to set them up.
By the late 60s, that info was gone leaving only the tooth count stamped on them.  I've even seen R&P without the tooth counts!  The advanced student can even identify the ratio and tooth profile by just looking at the head of the pinion.
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folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2016, 12:24:12 pm »

Early R&Ps had dimensional info etched or engraved on them to tell you how to set them up.
By the late 60s, that info was gone leaving only the tooth count stamped on them.  I've even seen R&P without the tooth counts!  The advanced student can even identify the ratio and tooth profile by just looking at the head of the pinion.

Thanks for clarifying this Bruce!

Looking forward to collect all the parts for a new tranny and putting all you guys advice in to use :-) Really starting to enjoy building gearboxes, except for the smell oft gear oil, can't stand it! Smiley

Best regards

Folke Vogn
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Bruce
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 13:50:45 pm »

Installing a gear with cracks is playing Russian Roulette.
I will find out if the hammer hits the empty holes in the barrel at the track.
[/quote]
While playing Russian Roulette, shut the engine off as you cross the line and listen to the gearbox.  When the noise starts to get louder on every pass, stop for the day.  You are getting really close to the live bullet.  If the bullet goes off, you have to throw away the trans case, otherwise you can keep using it.
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Udo
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Posts: 2077



« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2016, 22:14:09 pm »

https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000287/1001968

Definitely do the through stud if you get a white rhino.

Do this housings work ? Looking good and stronger than the mag ones

Udo
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folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2016, 08:12:37 am »

Installing a gear with cracks is playing Russian Roulette.
I will find out if the hammer hits the empty holes in the barrel at the track.
While playing Russian Roulette, shut the engine off as you cross the line and listen to the gearbox.  When the noise starts to get louder on every pass, stop for the day.  You are getting really close to the live bullet.  If the bullet goes off, you have to throw away the trans case, otherwise you can keep using it.
[/quote]

Thanks Bruce, I will definitely try to listen for the signs. It's only two very small cracks i the pinion gear, the rest of the teeth are fine and the ring has no cracks. From what I understand it often takes time for the cracks to develop so I'll think i will see how it goes and try to stop before it's to late :-) I have an extra case and the "White Rhino" on it's way anytime soon so hopefully I wont have to use them before next season.

Mvh

Folke Vogn
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Bruce
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2016, 12:33:58 pm »

Do this housings work ? Looking good and stronger than the mag ones
A lot of guys like the White Rhino.  Extra webbing and stronger Al are a good combo.  On the flip side, it uses the early pinion bearing.  Not as much support as the 091 pinion bearing, IMO.
The biggest drawback is that it adds heavyness to the rear of the car.
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folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2016, 13:07:45 pm »

Do this housings work ? Looking good and stronger than the mag ones
A lot of guys like the White Rhino.  Extra webbing and stronger Al are a good combo.  On the flip side, it uses the early pinion bearing.  Not as much support as the 091 pinion bearing, IMO.
The biggest drawback is that it adds heavyness to the rear of the car.

This has also crossed my mind, anyone know why they opted for the early pinion bearing(pros and cons)? Looks like it will ad around 4 kg of extra weight.

Best regards

Folke Vogn
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Bruce
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2016, 19:21:24 pm »

They didn't choose the early pinion bearing. It's what they had at the start and they never changed.
The Rhino trans case is made in Brazil.  For some unknown reason, as VW of Germany designed in upgrades throughout the 60s and 70s, VW of Brazil rejected virtually every upgrade Germany did.  IOW, the Brazilian gearbox is about equal to an early 60s German 'box.  They retained all the junk VW of Germany abandoned. The early pinion bearing is one of those parts they never updated.
The result is that a Brazilian gearbox is utter junk.
When VW of Germany stopped manufacturing Type 1 gearboxes in the early 80s, VW of Mexico had to source gearboxes from the only other manufacturer in the world, VW of Brazil.  About 15 years ago I bought a new Beetle in Mexico.  Having only driven old or rebuilt German gearboxes, I had high hopes for the completely new gearbox.  I was not impressed.  The German transmission that I rebuilt in my other car shifts so much better than what VW built.  Soon my Mexican Beetle will be getting a rebuilt German 'box.
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gkeeton@zbzoom.net
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 23:50:08 pm »

Thanks for the advice! I will use AF15 nuts and washer(and no through stud). The "White Rhino" is definitely affordable, just ordered it now  Smiley First step on a new tranny.

Do you use an original gear carrier or is there a better alternative? Looking at the article from VW Trends in 1988 they used a HD gear carrier called "elephant". I've been searching for something similar without any luck.

Best regards

Folke Vogn

If you're wanting to use the thrust washer modification like in the 88 article, the new Aluminum OEM VW gear carrier has the same voids the Magnesium ones have not making it the best to use. Autocraft has a housing that will work. The economy "E" carrier for a Medeola transaxle will work as well, but uses a larger mainshaft bearing. I haven't gotten anyone to post any pics of the Mendeola carrier, or any info on if the larger bearing can be used with a 113/002 mainshaft.
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nicolas
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Posts: 3998



« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2016, 15:51:21 pm »

best informative post of 2016! (yet)

 Grin

very pleased to see we are unvailing some of the gearbox voodoo here and it is great to see so much input. thumbs up!

i have a question regarding the side covers as well. i use a Crown (steel) cover and i use it only on the left side (diff side) i have two, but was said that only one is needed. up to what power, or is this even true? pros/cons

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spanners
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Posts: 286



« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2016, 18:25:06 pm »

best informative post of 2016! (yet)

 Grin

very pleased to see we are unvailing some of the gearbox voodoo here and it is great to see so much input. thumbs up!

i have a question regarding the side covers as well. i use a Crown (steel) cover and i use it only on the left side (diff side) i have two, but was said that only one is needed. up to what power, or is this even true? pros/cons

The pinion shaft tries to climp up the crown wheel teeth, since it's on the left of the c/w, this is where the side  thrust occurs, there's  nothing wrong in using another on the right, but with a steel one, do you want to add un neccasary weight?
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Best regards, spanners.
nicolas
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3998



« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2016, 20:31:35 pm »

best informative post of 2016! (yet)

 Grin

very pleased to see we are unvailing some of the gearbox voodoo here and it is great to see so much input. thumbs up!

i have a question regarding the side covers as well. i use a Crown (steel) cover and i use it only on the left side (diff side) i have two, but was said that only one is needed. up to what power, or is this even true? pros/cons

The pinion shaft tries to climp up the crown wheel teeth, since it's on the left of the c/w, this is where the side  thrust occurs, there's  nothing wrong in using another on the right, but with a steel one, do you want to add un neccasary weight?

weight is not my main concernů i drive a type3 so i have to carry an extra 200 or more kg anyway. i just read years ago that these were very good parts and when i found a set for sale i bought it and used it.
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folkevogn
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Posts: 155



« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 11:23:37 am »

Thanks for the advice! I will use AF15 nuts and washer(and no through stud). The "White Rhino" is definitely affordable, just ordered it now  Smiley First step on a new tranny.

Do you use an original gear carrier or is there a better alternative? Looking at the article from VW Trends in 1988 they used a HD gear carrier called "elephant". I've been searching for something similar without any luck.

Best regards

Folke Vogn

If you're wanting to use the thrust washer modification like in the 88 article, the new Aluminum OEM VW gear carrier has the same voids the Magnesium ones have not making it the best to use. Autocraft has a housing that will work. The economy "E" carrier for a Medeola transaxle will work as well, but uses a larger mainshaft bearing. I haven't gotten anyone to post any pics of the Mendeola carrier, or any info on if the larger bearing can be used with a 113/002 mainshaft.

I'm having the same problem as you i appears. Can't find any good info or price on the Mendeola gear carrier, only listed as being part of a complete tranny. I probably should try to e-mail them.

Best regards

Folke Vogn
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11.96 @ 180kmh - SCC 2013 Grin
gkeeton@zbzoom.net
Jr. Member
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Posts: 79


« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2016, 04:03:25 am »

I'm having the same problem as you i appears. Can't find any good info or price on the Mendeola gear carrier, only listed as being part of a complete tranny. I probably should try to e-mail them.

Best regards

Folke Vogn
It looks like Weddle has a front pic of the Mendeola carrier. I looks like it is a basic VW carrier that uses the later 002/091 mainshaft bearing. Weddle's # is MD4E-607. The other carrier with the bigger bearing is MD4E-607k. No pics, but I found on a sandrail forum that the bearing is larger in diameter, and slightly wider, but is still able to be used with a 113/002 VW style mainshaft with a retaining nut. Be thankful the lounge is as active as it is. The last post on the sandrail forum was from Oct. of 2015!
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