WRC style mouse motor: Is it possible with an ACVW engine?

[slowlearner]

This is a question I've had in my head for a long time. I took particular interest a few years ago when the FIA changed WRC cars from being 2000cc down to 1600cc. As it stands, the current spec across the class produces these figures...

300bhp @ 6000rpm
450nm @ 4000rpm (331ft/lbs)

As I looked at the rpm limits and the size of the engine, I began to think, "that is ACVW territory".

Since then I've wondered, "Is this possible with an ACVW engine?"

What do people think? If not, what is letting us down? The case, heads, cooling?

[modnrod]

Anythings possible.

But my limited experience with WRC tells me that with enough boost escaping from a small leak to take your arm off like a steam jet, you can make all the power in the world!
 

[Erlend / bug66]

Check out Kalle aka BeetleBug's awesome 1641cc turbo mouse. There is some info here on the Lounge and on Shoptalkforums.com

He's goal is 100hp per cylinder on the weels.


Or Niklas Haglund's insane 1641cc Ghia. Think it's been in the 9,20's...

[slowlearner]

I've seen Kalle's car. It's pretty amazing. 

[Erlend / bug66]

I've seen Kalle's car. It's pretty amazing. 

350+ whp out of a 1641cc engine is pretty spectacular! Spent som quality time along it today and it's sooo smooth, before it's violent! 

[Fastbrit]

Power output not the problem - making it live used flat out on a full-length rally stage would be a different matter. You can't compare WRC engines to air-cooled VWs - it's apples and oranges, chalk and cheese, etc.

Letting us down? Cooling, pushrods, valve train in general.

OHC conversion on a Pauter bottom end may live, but then it's no longer a VW.

[Basti]

Nice thread

WRC has a boost limit of 2,5 bar absolut and a 33mm Airrestrictor.

I think with that boost and high rpm you can do this power, but not with the restrictor 

Good luck!
Basti

[spanners]

Drag racing is air cooled's niche, circuit racing or rally's is the Wassers niche, I've raced both types for far to long, and I now get into trouble  from boredom with the Wassers reliability, retiring actually entered my head in a moment of boredom,,  a constant 300 hp rating is easy for them, the coolant after all is only a heat exchanger, it's still air cooled at the rad' why use a charge cooler and Then claim to be air cooled? You may as well do the job properly.

[slowlearner]

So an older style WRC style motor based on a 1.9L wasser would be more possible?

[Lee.C]

funny I have thought about a WRC beetle for years....

[spanners]

Put it this way, 300 constant rated fwhp is easy, so is 400 come to that, there are dozens of street busses and dokas pulling that figure reliably with nothing done other than the bolt on bits, but homologation for a wasser bug doesn't exist, so finding somewhere to race or rally is the first job, most armature clubs will let you in events, then the tears and winging start when you start winning and upsetting folk, they then get the rule book out and try to ban you, all the clever amature engineering is already chased away from both racing and rallying for exactly these reasons as the organisers wanted ' cars the public could identify with'  IE, the boring shite we have now,    historics are a no go as the wasser came out in the '82 transporter/ bus etc.  as we know, drags are a possibility, other than the weight penalty and being a rubics cube to work on, I'm surprised only the skinne car is seen drag racing, and I'm alone in the track racing world, for that I don't look back on all my Aircooled circuit racing years with pleasure, it was freakin hard graft under the car ALL the time, but we humans don't like change, moving  away from their comfort zone into the fear of the unknown may be a factor.

[slowlearner]

Down here in Aust, we have a rallying class called "club rally cars"...

http://www.rallynsw.com.au/building-a-new-rally-car-what-are-the-rules/#.Vchs_fmzG4o

Basically, they're trying to keep older cars cheap to build by allowing later motors from the same manufacturer. So a type 4 or a wasser would be welcome in the class. I guess the complex bit would be where to put the radiator in the case of a wasser. Sadly, unless the car came with a turbo, they're not allowed. 

[spanners]

No Turbo's kills it For a stock wasser, so a cheap bolt on turbo 300/400 boosted job can't happen, but you could 16v valve a wasser case using Porsche air cooled heads, or you could 16v water cool it using  #%^€$¥ heads, no turbo might wring 250hp from that, makes a mockery of the no turbo rule, what's the cheapest route, bolt on turbo power or a NA motor tuned to the extent of your cheque book?. Money saving regs rarely do what they perport to do, usually the are designed to support a given adjenda, Ford pressed for the stock block regs in the '70s because they got rumped, pumped and left for dead by Porsche engined Beetles in TV Rallycross, so we just put Porshe heads on T1 blocks and did it all over again.

[andy198712]

No Turbo's kills it For a stock wasser, so a cheap bolt on turbo 300/400 boosted job can't happen, but you could 16v valve a wasser case using Porsche air cooled heads, or you could 16v water cool it using  #%^€$¥ heads, no turbo might wring 250hp from that, makes a mockery of the no turbo rule, what's the cheapest route, bolt on turbo power or a NA motor tuned to the extent of your cheque book?. Money saving regs rarely do what they perport to do, usually the are designed to support a given adjenda, Ford pressed for the stock block regs in the '70s because they got rumped, pumped and left for dead by Porsche engined Beetles in TV Rallycross, so we just put Porshe heads on T1 blocks and did it all over again.

which WBX can you bolt on a turbo without compression mods and whats kinda PSI we talking? 

[spanners]

1.9 DG's are the softest at 8.6 :1, but modern management makes the 2.1 ltr DJ at 10:1 easily doable, all modern street turbos are high compression, most new re build p&l kits these days lower cr below the factory figure anyway, I did an MV at 9.2 in the '80s, it's still running today in my circuit car, albeit minus turbo and stretched now to 2.5 ltrs. It goes without saying you will not be bolting a turbo straight onto an unknown junk yard motor of cource.