Turbo knock sensor

[Garrick Clark]

Hi Guys .
I have a turbo motor and I'm concerned about piston knock/detonation/pinging.
What are racers/tuners  using to listen for knock under boost conditions.
I do have boost retard via the dual vac can method and it does work in terms of it does retard the timing about 5 degrees under boost .
but I could do with being able to monitor knock better than just trying to listen for it over the no muffler tail pipe.

Does anyone make a universal kit I could buy. One that doesn't link to an ECU as my motor doesn't run one.

I also ask this question for a mate who's just burned a piston on   his supercharged chevy. (twice now). His motor didn't have any hint of pinging until it was too late.

Cheers G

[Chip]

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

[Frallan]

My preference

http://www.plex-tuning.com/products/plex-knock-monitor-v2-0-new

[Stripped66]

Where do you find is the best location to mount the ring-style knock sensor?

[SuperBeetle73]

My preference

http://www.plex-tuning.com/products/plex-knock-monitor-v2-0-new

This one can only be used as a monitor - but the J & S version will retard the ignition when knock is sensed.  The J&S also has the ability to monitor as well with a dash mounted gauge.

I am using a J&S and mounted the sensor to the oil cooler block off as using a Porsche fan shroud with a large external oil cooler.

[Frallan]

[/quote] This one can only be used as a monitor - but the J & S version will retard the ignition when knock is sensed.  The J&S also has the ability to monitor as well with a dash mounted gauge.
I am using a J&S and mounted the sensor to the oil cooler block off as using a Porsche fan shroud with a large external oil cooler.
[/quote]
SuperBeetle73
Please do your reserach better before drawing your conclusions and sharing them.
I use to have a J&S and it is not bad.
Although customer service is up and down. Very much down in the last contacts I have had some years ago. Total neglect to answer my request to buy more from him.

Plex knock monitor is far superior in technology of J&S.
Probably far too advanced (and with that being expensive) for most hobby users like us.
Now it´s capabilities are fully proffesional mapping in the car or on the dyno with output to ECU or computerized ignitions.
No, it will not connect to a 009/010 distributor and retard it. There you are correct.
Plex is a monitor in itself and will show you either real time or in a log exactly how close to knock or actual knock and frequency you are.
It is a very versatile tool to show you what your adjustments really do in outcome.
Very much the same revolution that the lambda meter did for us many years ago when it was made available to "home tuners"
.
If you connect it to your PC, it becomes even better.
Like this:


The example shows base profile and different noise versus "knock" in red.

[Frallan]

Where do you find is the best location to mount the ring-style knock sensor?

Stripped66
Center location on the block if you only have one sensor.
Good stuff from the Plex manual. :-)

[Stripped66]

Where do you find is the best location to mount the ring-style knock sensor?

Stripped66
Center location on the block if you only have one sensor.
Good stuff from the Plex manual. :-)

Let me clarify...where do YOU find is the best location to mount a ring-style knock sensor on an AIRCOOLED VW?

I'm not looking for an instruction manual answer. I can see where the OEs put the sensor. OEs typically mount the sensor transverse to the cylinders (as pictured in #1 above). Does that mean the top of the case in our application? What about parallel to the cylinders, such as on the face of the case (between the tops of cylinders 3/4)? Any specific location that is more advantageous for signal to noise ratio for our anecdotally noisey engines?

[Frallan]

Sorry Stripped66,

This is my clarification:

Center location on the block if you only have one sensor.
On one of the through block bolts.
Usually done with a thick steel extension plate so you get full surface connection on the knock sensor.
Second best is the center M8 bolts but this option gives you less surface and is not as good.

[Stripped66]

Thank you, Frallen!

[BeetleBug]

I use the case bolt for the distributor clamp for the knock sensor and I only use the knock sensor when I dyno my car and push it hard. It did save my engine once and prevented a total disaster.

Best rgs
BB

[Stripped66]

I use the case bolt for the distributor clamp for the knock sensor and I only use the knock sensor when I dyno my car and push it hard. It did save my engine once and prevented a total disaster.

Best rgs
BB

Just to clarify, do you install and remove the knock sensor depending on when you're at the dyno or track (I otherwise don't know if you're running a stand-alone knock sensor system, or running a knock sensor through your EFI)? Or are you implying that you've set it to only be active when the engine is under high load?

[SuperBeetle73]

This one can only be used as a monitor - but the J & S version will retard the ignition when knock is sensed.  The J&S also has the ability to monitor as well with a dash mounted gauge.
I am using a J&S and mounted the sensor to the oil cooler block off as using a Porsche fan shroud with a large external oil cooler.

SuperBeetle73
Please do your reserach better before drawing your conclusions and sharing them.
I use to have a J&S and it is not bad.
Although customer service is up and down. Very much down in the last contacts I have had some years ago. Total neglect to answer my request to buy more from him.

Plex knock monitor is far superior in technology of J&S.
Probably far too advanced (and with that being expensive) for most hobby users like us.
Now it´s capabilities are fully proffesional mapping in the car or on the dyno with output to ECU or computerized ignitions.
No, it will not connect to a 009/010 distributor and retard it. There you are correct.
Plex is a monitor in itself and will show you either real time or in a log exactly how close to knock or actual knock and frequency you are.
It is a very versatile tool to show you what your adjustments really do in outcome.
Very much the same revolution that the lambda meter did for us many years ago when it was made available to "home tuners"
.

Frallan  - please confirm that if I used the Plex knock sensor on the road or strip and I had an issue with the fuel which caused detonation - would the Plex Knock Sensor get me out of trouble?  I don't work for J&S or not on commission etc, just that I checked all products available at the time.  I may be wrong - but each one has its advantages and the J&S will retard the ignition if it detects knock and as far as I was aware the Plex does not.  So the J&S works similar to a knock sensor built in  to most of today's cars.

[Frallan]

SuperBeetle73
On carburated engine with normal ignition like most of us have, no.
On a engine with electronic fuel and ignition yes, it has that capability.

I do not work for neither J&S or Plex.
The two products have differnt cost and different functional capability.

[Stripped66]

I may be wrong - but each one has its advantages and the J&S will retard the ignition if it detects knock and as far as I was aware the Plex does not.

The Plex has 0-5v analog outputs, so you would need a programmable ignition system (or engine management system) with ignition retard inputs to allow the Plex output to alter the ignition timing.

[BeetleBug]

I use the case bolt for the distributor clamp for the knock sensor and I only use the knock sensor when I dyno my car and push it hard. It did save my engine once and prevented a total disaster.

Best rgs
BB

Just to clarify, do you install and remove the knock sensor depending on when you're at the dyno or track (I otherwise don't know if you're running a stand-alone knock sensor system, or running a knock sensor through your EFI)? Or are you implying that you've set it to only be active when the engine is under high load?

Only when on a dyno and afterward I remove it. When racing and your engine set on "kill" you need a fully automated knock sensor device to keep you away from destroying your engine.

-BB-

[DRED]

Hello,

I use the phormula ks4

http://www.phormula.com/KnockMonitor-KS-4.aspx

Happy with this product, good results...
I try to fix the sensor on the top of the case, on the bolt near the clutch bell...bad accessibity, but the main issue is that the sensor don't resist to the tightening torque. I didn't want to use an extension to fix it, so eventually fix it on the vw fuel pump bolt which i closed with an alu plate (i use electrical pump)..Nice results.

It is not connect to my ecu but to my data acquition modul with lambda map rpm and throttle. I use it to tune the car on the street in real and representative hard conditions.(i have some favorite roads)
I only use it to record events on a graph data i can read quiet on the "down side" of the road or at home, you can usually easily  hear your engine knocking without specific tools with an aircooled engine...it's one of their benefit..the ks4 and recorded data are just here to help having the accurate lambda rpm and map points (and points i have a doubt) after runs.

When i decide the car is well tune i remove it..that mean main AND correction tables are well tune, it takes me around 4 or 5 runnings hours for a complete car calibration.(SA, lambda, corrections...)

I also use it on watercooled engine where it's harder to easily hear knock (because of water chambers) with good results.

(Sorry for my School/google english)

[Airspeed]

I use the J&S Safeguard since about six years now I think. Awesome product. Reduces timing on the fly, cylinder selective (only the knocking cylinder gets a retard!) I don't know about other products. At the time back then, J&S was the only working option on an aircooled undercammed engine.
On the turbo engine, its always 'on' for the extra protection (you never know what quality gas you are getting to name just one thing that can go wrong).

Walter