Engine on Nitro more info

[ottobros]

I am looking for information to make an aircooled engine run on nitromethane
can you run carbs ? or injected
How much CR can you run ?
We gone run the engine in a rail

Give me your info about stuff like this

Thanks Lenard Otto

[dangerous]

Wolfgang international would be the ones to talk too.

If you want to run upward of 90% then mechanical injection would be the way to go.
The Hilborn book gives some good starting points.
It says if you only want 20% you can use the same nozzles(14A or 16A depending on HP) as methanol,
and to go up in nozzle size .002" for every 20%.
but 90+ will want big nozzles(and high pressure) and big pump!(Hilborn 40A? and -1 pump)
My engine on methanol uses about 1gpm, so I would guess you would need at least twice that!
Plus low comp to fit all that liquid in.
I have heard 6:1, and the best ignition you can get!!
But please get some info from the "horse's mouth"!! (someone who has used it and had success)

[Christiano]

N/A or Forced Induction?
That makes a big difference when determining CR, camshafts, etc.

You can go EFI with big size injectors and gracefully handle this setup instead of just go MFI and stick a bunch of other stuff that will control anything but fuel injection.
A good EFI plays an important hole in a Nitro application and makes a BIG difference when in the right hands.
With a nice EFI you can tune the injection/ignition angle and this is something that helps A LOT in a nitro setup since nitro have some particularities with regard to injection timing and all.

[Frallan]

- Nitromethane
- Nitrous oxide
Not the same application and not to be mixed up.

I have a strong suspicion that both are being discussed.

[Christiano]

I don't think so 

Per what dangerous posted, it's pretty much related to a MFI nitro (not nitrous) setup.
And even though most people say "EFI and Nitro do not mix, go MFI", down here in Brazil we have some good results on cars running some on nitro, from low to extremely high % of nitro.

Below you can see some of the NA cars we have down here running EFI (usually Fueltech) and a nice % of nitro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmunyO8nrn0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps5svPV_jK4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps5svPV_jK4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBK3XJmxP7s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xjwHzV4BoM


And here two guys running nitro+turbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5soxSW3asA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg1nw-xVstA

[funnycarmike]

Most important information you need to know   . . . . . . . . . . . . Bring lots of $$$$$$$$

[Bill Schwimmer]

Most important information you need to know   . . . . . . . . . . . . Bring lots of $$$$$$$$

this is from somebody who really knows...

[Frallan]

I don't think so 

Per what dangerous posted, it's pretty much related to a MFI nitro (not nitrous) setup.
And even though most people say "EFI and Nitro do not mix, go MFI", down here in Brazil we have some good results on cars running some on nitro, from low to extremely high % of nitro.

DEEPLY impressed!
Totally new information to me and I really am interested to know more.
Most interested in what kind and what size injectors? Then the pumps? fuel flow need is massive compared to methanol.

[Christiano]

Most guys are running Siemens 220lb injectors, but with that sometimes you end up with too much DC to properly control the injection angle.

So, what a few guys are starting to do, is to switch from 220 siemens to 600-700lb/hr precision injectors, so they can still have the flow they need, using 1/2 of the DC they use for the 220 siemens and therefore fine tune the injection angle.
This is the perfect scenario though. If you stick with 4x220 injectors, it's more than enough for a NA 4cil small displacement (2.2-2.4 liters) nitro engine.
You can even use a Weldon 2345 or a MagnaFuel 750 for this.

Now, if we're talking about big displacement or turbo engines, you better start thinking about a mechanical fuel pump (the red one from aeromotive or even the black one, depending on the application).

And, of course, be prepared to spend some $ on a nice ignition system.
A M&W 500mj will do, but I know some people that already maxed out the 500mj (90%+ nitro on a big displacement engine) and will now move to a ProMag.

In the overall it's not that difficult.
Your lambda target for an engine burning Nitro isn't much different that your Methanol target.
The main things are that you need understand how the nitro proportion changes depending on the temperature (most of guys think they are using a % when they are using a different % b/c of the temperature), how the ignition timing works on a nitro app since nitro is a slow burning fuel, how much DC you should add/remove depending on the nitro % and some tricks you can use if you go down this road.

And, of course, like Mike mentioned, after spend a bunch of money to build you car for burning nitro, bring another money truck for paying the nitro cans/barrels

[richie]

Most guys are running Siemens 220lb injectors, but with that sometimes you end up with too much DC to properly control the injection angle.

So, what a few guys are starting to do, is to switch from 220 siemens to 600-700lb/hr precision injectors, so they can still have the flow they need, using 1/2 of the DC they use for the 220 siemens and therefore fine tune the injection angle.
This is the perfect scenario though. If you stick with 4x220 injectors, it's more than enough for a NA 4cil small displacement (2.2-2.4 liters) nitro engine.
You can even use a Weldon 2345 or a MagnaFuel 750 for this.

Now, if we're talking about big displacement or turbo engines, you better start thinking about a mechanical fuel pump (the red one from aeromotive or even the black one, depending on the application).

And, of course, be prepared to spend some $ on a nice ignition system.
A M&W 500mj will do, but I know some people that already maxed out the 500mj (90%+ nitro on a big displacement engine) and will now move to a ProMag.

In the overall it's not that difficult.
Your lambda target for an engine burning Nitro isn't much different that your Methanol target.
The main things are that you need understand how the nitro proportion changes depending on the temperature (most of guys think they are using a % when they are using a different % b/c of the temperature), how the ignition timing works on a nitro app since nitro is a slow burning fuel, how much DC you should add/remove depending on the nitro % and some tricks you can use if you go down this road.

And, of course, like Mike mentioned, after spend a bunch of money to build you car for burning nitro, bring another money truck for paying the nitro cans/barrels

Good info to know, always looking to learn and it is something I wondered about, something for the future maybe

thanks Christiano 

[Frallan]

Good info to know, always looking to learn and it is something I wondered about, something for the future maybe

thanks Christiano 

Agree to that!  I would have put money on that running nitro and EFI is far away feasible.
Now I stand corrected.
In fact it becames "easier" to control with the flexibility of the controls.
600-700 lbs injectors is another new to me.

Thanks!

[richie]

Agree to that!  I would have put money on that running nitro and EFI is far away feasible.
Now I stand corrected.
In fact it becames "easier" to control with the flexibility of the controls.
600-700 lbs injectors is another new to me.

Thanks!

Frallan

I have 500lb injectors on new cabrio, and recently saw the 700lb version being used, there is also a 1500lb injector[yes really !!!] out and being tested, with the recent performance gains in turbo pro extreme cars going 230mph at 1/8th mile and nearly 280mph at 1/4 and making around 4500hp on methanol the need for this size injector is becoming more common. There are even screw blown pro mods now switching to EFI to use the gains that control over MFi give you.
Progress is moving real fast the last 18months  

[Christiano]

An I must say "we" (Brazilian folks) have put some "pressure" on this progress with Fueltech EMS and ProLine being responsible for Fueltech USA and for picking some of the best cars out there and set them up with Fueltech FT500 and show what we can do.

Well... You just mentioned the ProMod with a screw blower that is using Fueltech and already did a 5.7 in its 3rd pass! That's a thing that no one EVER thought would work (and always said it would never work), you know that.
And I'll tell you it didn't run a lower time b/c the engine was almost maxing out the 700lb/hr injectors. They're now moving to 800lb/hr injectors.

When it comes down to small cars and classes that allow some more electronic to be used, then we have a bunch of features that were developed specifically for drag racing.

I'm close to Fueltech guys, specially to its owner and I'm always testing/suggesting new features for the modules, so I know a few things about what is going on on the track and behind the scenes.

But even though EFI makes your life easier if you go Nitro, sometimes you get a better result (and spend waaay less money) if you run NITROUS, specially with all the electronic you can use to manage it.
Not the intent of this thread though. Just my thoughts on things we see at the track.

[richie]

An I must say "we" (Brazilian folks) have put some "pressure" on this progress with Fueltech EMS and ProLine being responsible for Fueltech USA and for picking some of the best cars out there and set them up with Fueltech FT500 and show what we can do.

Well... You just mentioned the ProMod with a screw blower that is using Fueltech and already did a 5.7 in its 3rd pass! That's a thing that no one EVER thought would work (and always said it would never work), you know that.
And I'll tell you it didn't run a lower time b/c the engine was almost maxing out the 700lb/hr injectors. They're now moving to 800lb/hr injectors.

When it comes down to small cars and classes that allow some more electronic to be used, then we have a bunch of features that were developed specifically for drag racing.

I'm close to Fueltech guys, specially to its owner and I'm always testing/suggesting new features for the modules, so I know a few things about what is going on on the track and behind the scenes.

But even though EFI makes your life easier if you go Nitro, sometimes you get a better result (and spend waaay less money) if you run NITROUS, specially with all the electronic you can use to manage it.
Not the intent of this thread though. Just my thoughts on things we see at the track.

I have been watching the Fueltech ECU development for a while and I will seriously consider it for my next project, some really good things happening there, and with Proline involved it can only get better

cheers Richie

[ottobros]

Good Info Thanks like it alot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps5svPV_jK4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBK3XJmxP7s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xjwHzV4BoM


And here two guys running nitro+turbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5soxSW3asA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg1nw-xVstA
[/quote]

[ottobros]

Good Info we like it and wow you guys are fast

Thanks Christiano

[Dougy Dee]

Most guys are running Siemens 220lb injectors, but with that sometimes you end up with too much DC to properly control the injection angle.

DC=?

[Ragtop]

The Fueltech FT500 is starting to look like the best thing, there are a few guys in different capacities changing to Fueltech here in Sweden. Especially when it is built for dragracing.

[Frallan]

Most guys are running Siemens 220lb injectors, but with that sometimes you end up with too much DC to properly control the injection angle.

DC=?

Duty Cycle
i.e. going up to 85-90% and above. Not good for fuel control. Not good for the injector.
Alternative solutions are larger injector capacity, double injector and some advantadge can be found by increasing fuel pressure.

[Basti]

I will convert my car now to FT 500. so i can tell you next year

[ottobros]

I will convert my car now to FT 500. so i can tell you next year

I will convert my car now to FT 500. so i can tell you next year

Basti

Lets us know when you start with the FT 500 

[Christiano]

If you guys need help with FT500 or any FT related stuff, just ping me.
Glad to help on anything I can 

[Basti]

PM Send

If you guys need help with FT500 or any FT related stuff, just ping me.
Glad to help on anything I can 

[Basti]

So....I got the Fueltech FT 500 just before christmas and the engine fired up
the same day on the base map!! Really good.
At the moment i am working on the idle mapping, dyno session beginning of next year.

I am really happy with it!!

Cheers,
Basti

[richie]

So....I got the Fueltech FT 500 just before christmas and the engine fired up
the same day on the base map!! Really good.
At the moment i am working on the idle mapping, dyno session beginning of next year.

I am really happy with it!!

Cheers,
Basti

   how much percent are you adding to start with? 

cheers Richie

[Christiano]

So....I got the Fueltech FT 500 just before christmas and the engine fired up
the same day on the base map!! Really good.
At the moment i am working on the idle mapping, dyno session beginning of next year.

I am really happy with it!!

Cheers,
Basti

I told you you'd like it

The O2 closed loop will make your life a lot easier on the dyno and then you can put your efforts on other important settings.
Nowadays fuel/ignition tuning on EFI is the easiest/quickest part of the tuning process.

If you don't mind, please keep us posted on your experience with the FT500
Maybe a new thread for that so that we don't hijack this one?

[Basti]

@richie: just 5% in low rpm. was quite good already.
@christiano: yes...you are 100% right! If more people are interested i will make a FT 500 thread

Cheers,
Basti

[richie]

@richie: just 5% in low rpm. was quite good already.
@christiano: yes...you are 100% right! If more people are interested i will make a FT 500 thread

Cheers,
Basti

Basti, look at topic again So how much percent are you running? 

cheers Richie

PS I would be interested in a new thread as well

[Basti]

@richie: no nitro 

[richie]

@richie: no nitro yet