Kafer Cup engine brace vs Berg Traction Bar - how do they compare?

[Martin S.]

I've had the Berg-style rear engine support before but for one reason or another they've been ditched. Since the engine came out last on my turbo 68 bug, the bar seemed to aggravate a clutch chatter in reverse gear only and made a lot of noise in the car as well so it was left off. I have the Berg mid mount on the trans on that car. Now I'm thinking of adding one of the Kafer cup style rear braces and wonder what the opinion is on these compared to the Berg style rear engine support. Worthwhile? https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-17-2975 

[BeetleBug]

My honest opinion after trying that exact bar myselves; they are junk. Too weak and not well engineered. You want your weak frame horns to support 4 times the original engine output (according to your signature) and a far better solution would be to use your rear engine support until you can come up with a solution to permanently support your forks.

-BB-

[ovaldriver56]

I´ve built one myself 

[Torben Alstrup]

What Kalle said. The Empi one is designed wrong and will not stiffen the horns much. it will only send vibrations to the upper bar and make that swing. The one Ovaldriver has made is much better. But if it is to be perfect you need to joint the two arms as far out to the shock bolt as possibele to make the triangle as sturdy as possible.
The Berg center mount works well for releaving the front hanger of the stress when tha car is launched hard and also reduces rotation moves. but it does not help much on the rear of the case. That´s the job of the Käfer bar.

T

[andy198712]

i'm liking the idea of the "rabbit ears" used on Dawns red beetle Hugo, done by Ray Valero (RIP)
looks simple but in theory and according to her works really well,

[Martin S.]

So you don't like the way the upright bars are connected to the cross bar from what I read here. How does the CSP one look? It appears to be connected at the more rigid spots instead of inboard like the EMPI. The CSP ones needs welding to install though.  

https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C31-301-255-160

[Torben Alstrup]

So you don't like the way the upright bars are connected to the cross bar from what I read here. How does the CSP one look? It appears to be connected at the more rigid spots instead of inboard like the EMPI. The CSP ones needs welding to install though.  

https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C31-301-255-160

That is correct Martin.

[Martin S.]

I'm not going back to the Berg bar that's for sure, the car is much smoother to drive without the noise.
It looks like the engine will need to come out for the CSP bar, and the engine was just put back in. I have to decide to leave it as is, or bolt on the EMPI bar for now, thanks!

[BeetleBug]

The CSP bar is not a lot better compare to the earlier Empi one you considered.

What do you want to achieve? Are you going to race the car? You know you could improve the rear "Berg" bar and there is a lot of info here on The Lounge including pictures of cars with some good solutions. You could also consider using rubber between the support bar and the engine. And if you still have a doubt, look at what Porsche did with their cars and how they mounted their engines.

-BB-

[Martin S.]

Like I said I don't want the Berg bar again for a few reasons: Clutch chatter is worse for some reason, it transfers noise and vibration to the interior of the car, and the body of my car is not in the best shape in that area. I don't like connecting the engine to the body of the car and pulling the rear of the body down as the body should sit in the spots where it was designed to be supported. The frame horns are all that hold the transmission and engine combo in the pan and I would like them to not be able to flex up and down or twist with the motor. Anything to help support the ends of the horns would be a good idea and help stop any kind of movement of the engine when taking off. It's a daily driver and I don't beat on the car and I've driven it without the Berg bar and I prefer the smoothness so I'm looking for an alternative to decades of using the same old Berg bar.

[RPM Tim]

Sounds like you may have it too tight, pulling up on the front of the motor too much?

[Martin S.]

Here's the 'custom' one that was on the car most recently. It's a front strut brace from a BMW and a carved out al piece that fit the rear hanger bolts on the block. The bar was clamped tight to the block.

[Dougy Dee]

Good morning Martin.

I like your Rube Goldberg mount...
Why not get a bus mustache bar and adapt it or get a heavy wall 1-1/4" or 30mm HSS tube and modify it to fit your Funky mount?
There's too much flex in that round bar to properly support and preload the rear of your engine.

You mention your BERG bar. Don't the Berg instructions suggest preloading to minimize noise? And adjusting to suit?
Also did your BERG bar have the 'hockey puck' mounted to dampen the noise?

I remember having to mess around with preload on my black 61 with the Berg mid mount and traction bar. The back of that car was solid unlike the majority of local cars we see.

[Martin S.]

Hah yeah that al mount is funky alright. It's a motor mount from a newer Audi or something and carved out to suit by Steve. It is hollow and weighs almost nothing. That round bar is amazingly light and strong. You can stand on it and it won't flex, must be 6061 or 7071. An improvement we planned but never got around to was heim joint links for the uprights and rubber bushings which would stop the engine from being able to lift up as well as drop instead of just simple hangers like what was there. That alone could have helped the clutch chatter. I still have the chunky original Berg bar around with the rubber puck as well. I just don't like mounting to the flimsy sheet metal in the tail of my car. Seem akin to polishing a turd if you get my analogy.