working on the engine

[nicolas]

ok i will start to look at the 1641 engine again in a couple of weeks and as much fun as the engine is i want MORE! it really is all you guys fault, really  always talking about mouse motors running 12's and so...

no i am very pleased with the 17,5 second run i made, but maybe there is more power in the combo and while i work slowly on the next, bigger engine, i can try to make as much power as possible from  this one.
so please give all the combo's and suggestions you have to built a faster 1641.   

for now the engine looks like this:

FI case that has been fullflowed
counterweighted 69 crank and 87 pistons and cylinders
lightend flywheel
lightened and polished stock rods
OG  lifters
1.25 rockers with swivel feet
heads are stock dualports with 40x35 valves ( no porting to my knowledge)
short manifolds that fit under the decklid with 40 idf's (32 vents)
019 distributor and bosh blue coilµ
full flow system with a extra filter and a oilcooler located next the transmission
W110 cam and straight gears

what can i do to make it run better apart from getting it set up properly. i have to work on the carbsetup to get it running better again. but as i am planning on adding a deep sump again i might as well have the heads done or other changes made to it while i can do it.

thanks again

nicolas

[richie]

You got to get some work on the heads,without porting and with those valves they are definately a restriction,what exhaust are you using?  cheers richie,uk

[louisb]

Looks like a good port job will really help out. Maybe a 120 cam. What size exhaust? Of course, stepping up to bigger PCs would help too. Just depends on how much you want to spend I guess.

--louis

[nicolas]

my exhaust is a SS 1 1/2 type3 header with a hideaway muffler. sorry forgot to mention that. it has also the type setup for the cooling.

 

[nicolas]

Looks like a good port job will really help out. Maybe a 120 cam. What size exhaust? Of course, stepping up to bigger PCs would help too. Just depends on how much you want to spend I guess.

--louis

i can spare some money for it, but i can't go full monty on this one as i plan on building a bigger engine later on. how about those VZ cams from engle? do they work in a type3?

[John Rayburn]

The best money you could ever spend is on headwork. That's where your power lies. I'd go with something in a merge collector for maximum extraction as well.

[louisb]

my exhaust is a SS 1 1/2 type3 header with a hideaway muffler. sorry forgot to mention that. it has also the type setup for the cooling.

 

This is in a T3? That is a heavy car for such a small motor. W/ a heavy car you might want to focus on torque more than HP. Making power in the lower revs will help. So i wouldn't go to wild with the cam. Port the heads, run the 110, focus on building a big stroker for that car.

--louis

[John Rayburn]

VZ grinds are snappy ,but they are real hard on valve guides.

[nicolas]

stock gears of a type3. 4.125 RP and all other gears are stock. so not ideal as well...
when i raced i only used the first 3 gears and the engine didn't like the longer 3rd one. it had to built up power longer and ran out at the end of the track. if i shifted to fourth it was worse at it just died. but i thought that would happen as the 4th gear is quite long in a type3 gearbox.

[nicolas]

what is on store for the 78mm crank? This might be a good place to use it, nicolas. 

aha! that will be in a 78x94 engine. i allready have the trijet dells and the heads. they will be fitted in a AS21 case if i can lay my hands on one and for cam i am still looking around. maybe a w130, maybe something different...

this engine (1641) will end up most likely in the squareback for some more grunt in that one as well.

[John Rayburn]

what is on store for the 78mm crank? This might be a good place to use it, nicolas. 

aha! that will be in a 78x94 engine. i allready have the trijet dells and the heads. they will be fitted in a AS21 case if i can lay my hands on one and for cam i am still looking around. maybe a w130, maybe something different...

this engine (1641) will end up most likely in the squareback for some more grunt in that one as well.

                                                 The 130 will work great with 125's. It will work wonders in a heavy car. I have fond memories of that combo.

[nicolas]

yeah the problem is the motor is smaller, and won't make as much torque as a big cc. A big motor will climb powerband faster especially with long gears.
A small motor with long gears and heavy car should stay conservative as far as ports and cam timing goes. I think your plan is a good one.

station!!!



i just wanted to see if there is some extra ponies in this combo as it is the engine i will be driving for most of the next year. first my wallet needs to grow a little more to get the 2165 together; and if the 130 works good in a heavier type3 and there are not too many comprmises or drawbacks i will stick to that 'classic' cam. i saw that quite a few of the dkp-cars have one, so i thought i would be good...

[nicolas]

been tinking about the engine this morning and maybe i can do some mild porting myself??? is it difficult? can it be done or is it as tricky as black magic and better not to be done by me? i just want to polish things up a little and have the manifolds match the heads better.

i think i will stick with the cam and rockers and maybe if i have to take of the heads have them machined to 90,5 pistons and cylinders. of course that would mean i have to open up the case as well... and the engine doesn't have a lot of miles on it yet. but i have checked with the guy i ask to do my engines and he says that it would take more than a month to have the heads and case opened for the bigger p&c's... isn't there someone who can do it quicker in belgium or so?

[Neil Davies]

been tinking about the engine this morning and maybe i can do some mild porting myself??? is it difficult? can it be done or is it as tricky as black magic and better not to be done by me? i just want to polish things up a little and have the manifolds match the heads better.

I'm certainly not an expert on heads and wouldn't know where to start in doing a full porting job, but I do try to get my heads and manifolds match ported, even on the most basic of engines. My trusty stand-by 1584cc motor (stock except for dual 36 DRLAs and  merged header) in my old race car went from 17.2sec down to 16.4 just by match porting the heads and manifolds. While the heads were off I replaced the old stock valves and springs with new ones.

Later on I added 1.25 rockers, chromoly pushrods, taller manifolds and a lightened flywheel and the car also gained the close ratio gearbox and slicks from the bigger motor. Revving to 6000rpm (on a stock crank!) got down to a 15.75 second quarter mile. As far as I know the case has never been split - I've certainly never done it on that motor, and when I took the oil pump out it's still running a rivetted on cam gear - stock cam?

[nicolas]

Later on I added 1.25 rockers, chromoly pushrods, taller manifolds and a lightened flywheel and the car also gained the close ratio gearbox and slicks from the bigger motor. Revving to 6000rpm (on a stock crank!) got down to a 15.75 second quarter mile. As far as I know the case has never been split - I've certainly never done it on that motor, and when I took the oil pump out it's still running a rivetted on cam gear - stock cam?

wow! getting from a 17.2 run to a 15;75 is what i am looking for... i guess i can make the effort of looking at it more closely. i just want to gain a second or if possible a bit more on this combo.
what springs did you use? i have single coil springs (harder than stock, but i can't remeber the brand)

[Neil Davies]

I guess I got lucky in a lot of ways - the motor originally cost £100 and had been sat in a friends shed for a couple of years!

After I'd run it a few times I decided that it could do with new valve springs as the valves were floating at 4500rpm, so I took the heads off and decided to replace the valves and keepers too. Good job I did - they were worn out along the keeper grooves! I just went to my local VW specialist, got the grey fibre Empi/Mr Bug branded inlet manifold gaskets and opened the heads and manifolds up to the same size as the gasket. The springs and valves were just stock replacement parts - No idea if they were Brazillian, Mexican or what!

[yvre]

Slap a turbo on it.

[alex d]

I'd do some mild porting, and maybe even try smaller venturies which may help the bottom end come alive

[louisb]

been tinking about the engine this morning and maybe i can do some mild porting myself??? is it difficult? can it be done or is it as tricky as black magic and better not to be done by me? i just want to polish things up a little and have the manifolds match the heads better.

Get a copy of the fischer How to Hot Rod VW engines. It has detailed pics and write up of how to port heads. That should get you started.

--louis

[nicolas]

i have the book and will suck up all the infon in there and see if i can make something out of it.
as for the engine now i had some trouble coming back from DDD, the car didn't accellerate properly but didn't run hot or so. so i thought there must have been something wrong with the distributor again and it turns out that the rotor is cracked at the tip and quite black on top, where the graphite from the cap sits. i have a aftermarket cap and a new rotor installed allready, but why did this happen. is this points that float? or a bad setup and gapping of the points. or do i need to look for original replacement parts (rotor, cap,...) as they may be better in quality?
maybe i can drive the car again by the weekend and see if it is better. and after that i think i will see if i can take of the heads and work on them.   

[Bewitched666]

I know this guy from a dutch forum that also runs a 1641 combo and he runs in the 15's.
I dont know exactly what cam he has but 044 head with port job,40mm dells and 69c/w crank and i guess 1:25 rockers.

So i would port the heads maybe add the W120 cam,my 2 cents

[j-f]

Hi Nicolas,

I'm sure not an expert.

I've try to work on my heads myself. It's not difficult but it take time. Finally, after some pieces of advices, I've buy new heads from a French shop.
It is 043 heads. They come with stainless valves, Bugpack springs, chromo hardware, angle jobs on valve seats. They have a potential of 95hp. Price is 495€.
If you use second hands heads, be sure that's they are perfect state. Valve guides etc. Align manifolds it's not too diificult you can find a good tech article here. http://www.old-droppers.com/index.php?showtopic=1943

You can do a 74*88. It's a typicaly Old school combo. And great to have good torque in a heavy type 3.
I'm not an expert to find the right choice of cams you need. It also depends of wath you are planning to do with. Tow bar to meetings and make some runs or daily driver?
Adding 1.25 rockers on an Engle 110 is a good thing I think. More power from 3500 rpm and red zone to 6.000t. But, It's obligatory to have dual springs and chromo push rods. Manton thin wall are great.

But engine is not all. If you plan to make times on a quarter mile, there is work on the car also...

A French guy run a 1600 with webcam 218 + 1.25 rockers and make times in the 15.5sec.

[nicolas]

read the article on the french site and it looks interesting, i already have the dremel so i am well on my way now... 
but regarding those double springs, do i really need then? i guess i need to buy them for insurance, but will i need pushrods as well or is it a straightforward swap. i allready have chomoly ones.

[j-f]

read the article on the french site and it looks interesting, i already have the dremel so i am well on my way now... 
but regarding those double springs, do i really need then? i guess i need to buy them for insurance, but will i need pushrods as well or is it a straightforward swap. i allready have chomoly ones.

If you keep the Engle 110 and don't rev more than 5.500rpm you can keep the single springs. But, if you plan to add 1.25 rockers you should put dual springs and chromo pushrods. The originals pushrods can not support the pressure of the dual springs.

[louisb]

Just ran across this article on the CLF on head porting.

http://www.cal-look.com/tech/basic.shtml

--louis

[Georg/DFL]

read the article on the french site and it looks interesting, i already have the dremel so i am well on my way now... 
but regarding those double springs, do i really need then? i guess i need to buy them for insurance, but will i need pushrods as well or is it a straightforward swap. i allready have chomoly ones.

If you keep the Engle 110 and don't rev more than 5.500rpm you can keep the single springs. But, if you plan to add 1.25 rockers you should put dual springs and chromo pushrods. The originals pushrods can not support the pressure of the dual springs.

j-f, it always depends on how light your valve drive is not only how high you can rev the engine. I had a 1776 with Scat lifters (8 g lighter then stock), Berg chromoly pushrods (heavyer then stock) and reinforced single springs. The cam was a W120 Engle and I was reving the engine up to 6200rpm. That worked ALWAYS!

Nicolas, you can keep your single springs as long as they are reinforced!
Cheers,

Georg

[j-f]

Yes, I've suppose that Nicolas still have stock valves and lifters.

It's a fact that you can reinforce the valve train or make it lighter.

That's why I've mention the manton thin wall push rods which are lighters than others chromoly's .

[nicolas]

read the article on the french site and it looks interesting, i already have the dremel so i am well on my way now... 
but regarding those double springs, do i really need then? i guess i need to buy them for insurance, but will i need pushrods as well or is it a straightforward swap. i allready have chomoly ones.

If you keep the Engle 110 and don't rev more than 5.500rpm you can keep the single springs. But, if you plan to add 1.25 rockers you should put dual springs and chromo pushrods. The originals pushrods can not support the pressure of the dual springs.

iu allready have the 1;25 rockers and i have been said that my heads need machining to accept duals... is this true? and what does it need? (maybe some pics) and i was allready running chromo pushrods as well. there went some serious work in that engine allready, but now it needs to perform like it should... 

[j-f]

Yes, you need to machine the heads to put the dual springs. 

[nicolas]

ok things are not ok for the moment... i just switched the vents to the 28's again and put in smaller jets, but it responded ok when i hit the trottle stationary (station!!!  ) but not when i hit the road for a quick spin around the block. it must be the distributor, or otherwise the carbs. i might as well change the plugs so on a type3 you need to pull the carbs of the engine... it is that easy. so maybe tomorrow. i will also setup the carbs properly and try to have them sync. but i don't have the gauge at the moment. is there someone who has a spare they have laying around and can sell me? thanks

nicolas