Where to from here ?

[dive!dive!]

Age old question. I want more, what next ? Looking for ideas & inspiration really

I have a nice 1776. GAC ported heads 40*35.5, 9.5:1, Bugpack 4062-10 with 1.25:1 rockers, 1.5" Turbo Thomas exhaust. Full EFI with ITB's. Makes 125-130 flywheel hp, belt/muffler on, depending if I have the airbox fitted or not.
Heads flow 163 @ 25" @ 12.5mm lift, small oval ports.
I quite like the idea of keeping the displacement if possible. Its in a full weight '71 Beetle, weekend street use only
Options I have considered
1. More cam. If so, which one ? FK8 or similar ? Where will that get me ?
2. Turbo. Easy from where I am with the efi already done, but do I want the extra complication ?
3. Use what I have and make it bigger - maybe a 78 crank plus cam change

Looking for ideas on option 1 ....but don't want too lose too much driveability.
Thoughts ?

Cheers

[Bryan67]

Go big. Buy an 82mm crank.

[Zach Gomulka]

Easiest and best power for money spent will be to get 94's that slip into the 90.5 register. Work the chambers for the larger bore and let the compression come up.

[Martin S.]

The problem for most people is that you get used to the power and want more.
Best solution is adding a turbo. It's like adding a new exhaust, not really that complicated and doesn't affect driveability.
I had a draw thru carbed kit from Low Bugget added to my anemic Berg 7:1 1776.
Then I added EFI and ended up with 15 psi of boost and that was a wild ride, so much fun!
Then the motor was rebuilt into a 2332 with lower boost. More torque, higher CR, and less boost.
More beautiful Porsche-like power, but not as fun as the kick in the pants with 7:1 and 15 psi, you'd love that if you're bored! 

[Jim Ratto]

Age old question. I want more, what next ? Looking for ideas & inspiration really

I have a nice 1776. GAC ported heads 40*35.5, 9.5:1, Bugpack 4062-10 with 1.25:1 rockers, 1.5" Turbo Thomas exhaust. Full EFI with ITB's. Makes 125-130 flywheel hp, belt/muffler on, depending if I have the airbox fitted or not.
Heads flow 163 @ 25" @ 12.5mm lift, small oval ports.
I quite like the idea of keeping the displacement if possible. Its in a full weight '71 Beetle, weekend street use only
Options I have considered
1. More cam. If so, which one ? FK8 or similar ? Where will that get me ?
2. Turbo. Easy from where I am with the efi already done, but do I want the extra complication ?
3. Use what I have and make it bigger - maybe a 78 crank plus cam change

Looking for ideas on option 1 ....but don't want too lose too much driveability.
Thoughts ?

Cheers

I would have to ask what result you want and what's your priority (cost? ease of build? ultimate HP?)

An FK8 will work, in terms of it opening and closing valves, but there will be consequences. I am not familiar with specs on your Bugpack cam or with diameter of butterflies/runners of your TB, so it's hard to say how the K8 will change how your setup runs. Being that you have EFI, the consequences should be less severe than if you ran Webers. A carbureted 1776, on the street, running Webers and a K8 will be on the hairy side, not completely undriveable though. It's not that wild of a cam.

An easy bump in cc would be to invest in a 74mm stroke crank. With some handwork to the case, it will drop in. If you have/use clearanced rods, less handwork to do. With care, you can use a rotary tool to relieve the case in a few afternoons of dirty work. Your 1776 becomes a 1904 and everything works faster, harder and with an immediacy. You could bump cam up to something like W125/W130 with your 1.25:1 (make sure to set valve springs up accordingly). You can use your existing 90.5, but will need to adjust deck height with some spacer/shim under cylinders.

Depending on diameter of your TB runners and butterflies, there is a point where going too big will start to stifle gains, no matter which cam, etc.

Sometimes just refining a good combination is all it takes too. Over the last 6 months, I've updated ignition box, carburetor setting and exhaust system. Haven't changed anything within the engine, and the car is more fun, faster and less work.

Have fun

[dive!dive!]

Good input. Jim - to your points - the cam is a W110 lookalike , the itbs are speedshop idf pattern with 38mm throttle plates. the manifolds are 48mm CB ones but matched to the heads. it isn't about low cost, just doing it right. Ease of build isn't really an issue either - don't mind a challenge (and the efi swap wasn't that easy....)

I have some concerns that if I just do a cam change on the 1776 or do a cam change and take it to 1915, it will be fun for this summer, but then I will be back to square one wanting more ? I realise Peter Shattock has done amazing things with 1776.... so that is still an option.

I'm sort of also shying away from the 'usual' route of a 200hp 2332....

So. If I did  turbo, it will be pretty simple as the non boost map is done, and I 'just' need to pull timing and add fuel for boost. There are now a second set of questions - what turbo for a small motor on the street (spools quick) ? How much boost with the current set up i.e keeping the CR at 9.5  ? Chargecooler from the get go ?

The real problem here , as you have alluded to is - what do I want ? I don't know, just that its a 'bit' more than I have . I've not driven a Beetle with more than the 130hp I have, maybe 150-160 will be 'enough' , just don't know...
What I do like though is the concept of a mouse/rat motor, doing more with less.

Thanks

[Martin S.]

I know I know the burning question is why did I upgrade from the 1776 to the 2332. The reason was that the 110 cam with its overlap wasn't sending a clean vacuum signal to the ECU. That made tuning the low end a real bitch on the turbo. So the rebuild was to put a cam with less overlap in. You can guess the rest. You can certainly have a turbo engine with your ITBs, but mine uses a bus single TB welded to the Turbo. I just love my motor!

[dive!dive!]

Interesting. My map is a hybrid. Fuel is by TPS. Spark is by MAP - I have a 1/2" balance pipe between the ITB's and a t off that to a small plenum with the MAP sensor. I get a clean 60-65kpa at idle which seems to work fine.  With my ECU I could essentially leave the N/A map exactly as it is - I have 2d trim tables to add fuel on boost.

Cheers

[nicolas]

i have gone from a 1776 to a 2007 in my type3. and that works great, for me it was what i the engine i wanted. i was set on a bit more grunt and power from the start. so i opted to fit a 78 crank and a FK44cam, with the same package as the 1776 ( i did opt for long stroke 90.5s)
BUT the 1776 with a milder cam (web 121/119) was so smooth. it really is a basic no worries combo with good reliable power. the bigger you go, the more you expect and sometimes that is at the dispense of easy goingness. with you efi, this can be greatly minimized, it is something i do consider building a 'cruiser' insted of a warior engine.
as a sidenote i had that similar cam in my first 1641 and it was a blast! i ran that thing hard. it only had 70-75 hp max, but it could drive all-day every-day.

[Paul Bahnstormerz]

I'd invest a gearbox first unless you already have


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Martin S.]

Check out some of these motors, droooooool http://vwturbokits.com/ 

[Joel Mohr]

Or if you want it VERY streetable...no heat in the engine bay...just remove the Kadron, and add a filter. My header is 1 1/4 OD and it spools Very quickly, and still makes power to 5500

[Martin S.]

I like that clean look, especially with the flat black paint. It also looks very easy to work on. The thing with turbos is they like small headers. I'm using stock heater boxes and small header with a 2332. I can even hear it spool as I creep up hill in first gear when parking. Any kind of load at low rpm and your can hear the turbo kick in and add torque.

[leec]

Or if you want it VERY streetable...no heat in the engine bay...just remove the Kadron, and add a filter. My header is 1 1/4 OD and it spools Very quickly, and still makes power to 5500

Wow,
Love that set up. If the original poster of this thread doesn't mind could you post more details please. Engine spec etc

[Martin S.]

It has a nice rat rod look 

[Joel Mohr]

The one in the pic is a 1915 with some head work that made 180 hp, 220 tq...pump gas, 11 psi Web 218, 7.9 to 1

[leec]

Great stuff. What work have the heads had?
Lee

[Joel Mohr]

40 x 35.5, small oval ports by Clyde Berg, Hemi cut and detailed chambers...

[Zach Gomulka]

I like building a combo up in stages. If it was mine I'd do the 94 "slip ins" first. It will be a good return on your investment (time and cost).

When you're bored of that, come the following off season swap in a 74 crank for 2054cc, 5.325" rods, hotter cam and consider more headwork. THAT will make a massive difference.

Also think about a gearing change, loosing some weight, and doing some suspension work. They can all go a long way towards making a car much more entertaining to drive.

[dive!dive!]

Martin - is your sig line correct ? 3psi boost ? Three? What CR is that on?

Zach - yes, i see what you are saying and I like the developmental approach ... more work though!

I was pondering on this during the week and remember back when I started driving THE hot hatch to have was the Golf GTI . The Mk 1 weighed not much different from a Beetle if I recall. it had 110bhp as a 1.6 and 112bhp as a 1.8 8v, I think the 1.8 16v had about 120 ish. I had the 8v Scirocco and it felt quick. My brother in law had a Mk1 8v that had been tuned by GTI engineering , I reckon it had maybe 135bhp and felt really quick. I first got my Beetle not long after this and here i am now with that same power  in a Beetle and want more. How times change !

[Martin S.]

Yes, I can see the boost gauge barely move. The reason this was done was because the motor would make too much power for the original 68 transmission. The rod on the turbo waste gate is adjusted to bypass the turbo so there is less boost. I'm looking at turning up the boost now that I have a new transmission. I was told it will need to be retuned. The motor has 8.5:1 CR with dished AA pistons in a bathtub shape to match the chambers in the 044 heads. The heads are fully ported. He told me it's a race motor tuned for the street.  I drive it daily in the summer, to work, rain or shine. Sits in traffic happily idling in summer heat wave mid 30's temps no problem.

[Jim Ratto]

Martin - is your sig line correct ? 3psi boost ? Three? What CR is that on?

Zach - yes, i see what you are saying and I like the developmental approach ... more work though!

I was pondering on this during the week and remember back when I started driving THE hot hatch to have was the Golf GTI . The Mk 1 weighed not much different from a Beetle if I recall. it had 110bhp as a 1.6 and 112bhp as a 1.8 8v, I think the 1.8 16v had about 120 ish. I had the 8v Scirocco and it felt quick. My brother in law had a Mk1 8v that had been tuned by GTI engineering , I reckon it had maybe 135bhp and felt really quick. I first got my Beetle not long after this and here i am now with that same power  in a Beetle and want more. How times change !

A friend of mine and I talked about this a few years back. A well set up Type 1 with about 150-165 horsepower is going to get you places in a hurry. Even maybe jail. The original Mk 1 GTI was a hoot and VW still hasn't captured the punky nature of the original (the Mk 7 is OK, but it's a good 1000ln heavier than the orig, no matter how much tire and HP you mix in, it's still a pig, I know, I own one)
But what I am getting at is yes, 190-200 hp is going to (as my old boss said) "rip the eat rails up off the floors", but honestly, a mid-cc size engine making 150-165 hp (or even a 1776 making 140), to me, might be more fun to drive around. I'm sure all of the Cal Look world will come looking for me to tie up and throw rocks at for saying it, but the trend of 2300+cc motors is kind of lost on me.

I like the 1904 idea with your 40mm valves and a Engle 125 or 130.

Jim Ratto

[Martin S.]

I guess the allure of the mouse motor ended with the cheap chinese parts like rods and cranks. Most figure if you're going to spend money building an engine, the bigger crank is the same price, so why not? Free torque.

[Jim Ratto]

But is it free? In the early 2000's I replaced a Scat 82mm Procomp nitrided 912 journal crank with a Bugpack 84mm 912 journal crank. I used same rods, same p/c, same German AS21 case, same heads, tried two different cam profiles (CS 320 and Web 86C).
You would assume adding that 2mm total stroke would be no big deal.
So I first used the Clay Smith cam which was 285' @ .050 and had a strange ramp to it. Not only was it wrong for a heavy street car but it was real noisy (mechanically). Anyway, I grew tired of the lack of any torque under 5000 rpm and the chattering noise, so I tore the motor down to replace it with 86C. What I noticed immediately was the fretting marks at case split, mostly at # 2 but also at #3, and this case was a virgin, German universal, filled #3 shuffle pinned case when it went together in 1992 with the Scat 82. And it never showed fretting/polishing UNTIL I put that 84 crank in. So I checked crush on # 2, 3 bearings in case, it was "ok" but not like it used to be. This stuff keeps me awake at night. I installed the CS cam with intake lobe center @ 102 ATDC, and the Web @ 104, which now looking back was mistake with 86C, as it ran out of breath around 6400, and I grew bored with what I called "the tow truck motor", it was just a big locomotive motor, no character to it. It ran the same at 2800 as it did at 5800.
To everybody's dismay back then, I got rid of the 84 crank. When I took the engine apart to take the crank out, guess what, more fretting.
Not only this, but going up in stroke, with same heads, p/c, sent compression up (naturally), which was on ragged edge for the fuel I was running with 82mm, so now the motor built cylinder pressure faster, and it pinged. So I had to back timing down. Which with the big CS cam is going backwards. I could have had the chambers reshaped or the heads "stepped" but I really liked the heads as they were, they ran wonderfully on the 82 stroke motor in the late 1990's.
Forgot to mention, going from 82 to 84, using my same old Bugpack race rods from 1991, number 3 rod cap now hit cam lobe of Web Cam. I had to order a smaller base circle 86C from Web.

I don't believe in the adage "no replacement for displacement", instead I think you first need to look at architecture of the cylinder head and what size valve and port size you want to use for your application, then figure in what single cylinder cc will "run" the rpm band you want, extrapolate that out to 4 cylinder, etc. Then decide cam/intake/exhaust tuning.

[dive!dive!]

Hmm. Many potential paths to tread and thats what makes this hobby fun...
The instant gratification turbo route. For, lets say £1k , I go from 130 to 200+/- hp
Build a new 2.3. Pretty sure thats not where I want to go.
Do more with what I have.
Lets say that the goal is 150-160. Can I get there with 1776 ? Sure , the heads will support it but its going to need a lot of cam and CR. How about this (bear in mind its not about doing it on the cheap, if I want a new 2,3 , I will have one :-) ) : get a 78.8 crank and B pistons to give me the same deck with very minimal fiddling (do the math) . Copper head gaskets to keep the CR sensible. Cam somewhere around 300 advertised. I'm gonna play with engine analyzer tomorrow and see what it says :-)
Good discussion though!

[Martin S.]

Interesting Jim, what length rods were you using? Steve told me to get the longest rods I could so I used 5.7" I have no idea how my crank/case is holding up but my car has been on the road for a few years now so I'm hoping for the best.
Looking back everything seems rosy, but my memory does that to me. I sure had fun with the 15 psi 1776 at 7:1 cr with the turbo My big engine is more boring but I like how I can now drive in the burbs like other people with their big V8 SUVs and keep up to them at the lights, etc. And downtown I can get the holeshot on the big electric streetcars with their bottomless torque just like the cabbies with their V8's. I don't even have to try. I don't go for all out speed on the parkways, but instead hop it from traffic to traffic, pull up beside people and leave them in the dust, so fun!
Dive! the only reason to take your motor apart would be to lower the cr for turbo if you're going that route, or to change the cam for a better turbo grind. I would get a turbo and try it out on your engine as is, just for fun, and you can always revert back and sell the header and turbo. I don't have any extra crap like a BOV or shiny parts so it would be a minimal amount of stuff to get. Do get a tune for it because apparently boost will change everything in the chamber.

[Jim Ratto]

5.600

[Paul Bahnstormerz]

Just spray the motor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zach Gomulka]

Just spray the motor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In this case, that is a great choice!