Starting The Stew Rat - advice please

[StewRat]

Finally ready to work up to starting the Stew Rat ...

Spark plugs out, coil disconnected, oil pressure sensor out, crank the engine on the starter, oil soon appears out the sensor hole. So far so good.
Sensor back in, crank again, oil pressure soon comes up. Starting to feel positive.
Video of that is at http://stewrat.stewarthutton.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/plugs-out.mp4.
I don't have any terms of reference, but seems to be cranking ok?

Connect coil, spark plugs in, try to crank the engine on the starter and it just chugs really slowly.
Video of that is at http://stewrat.stewarthutton.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/plugs-in.mp4.
Any suggestions as to what is causing this?

The obvious difference is the starter is having to fight the compression stroke, but its only a little over 10:1 - is that a problem for a standard starter?
Or for the battery? It's a pretty basic Halfords job that I got to see me through this stage, but it's brand new and fully charged. I tried an experiment with all the plugs out but connected to the wires and they all spark while the engine cranks at the higher speed, so it doesn't seem to be the drain of the ignition circuit that is causing the slow down.

I'd have been worried the whole engine was too tight if it didn't spin (I think) ok without the plugs in.

Thoughts, suggestions - or even fully formed diagnosis with detailed solution - all welcome.

Thanks

Stewart

[richie]

Try cranking with coil disconnected but everything else fitted, if timing is too advanced it will be bitch to crank, with coil off no spark so this doesn't affect it

[StewRat]

Try cranking with coil disconnected but everything else fitted, if timing is too advanced it will be bitch to crank, with coil off no spark so this doesn't affect it

Right - will try that.
The timing could be wildly off - like by multiples of 90 deg off - I need to ask a separate question as I still dont understand how to get this even roughly set up with Pertronix ignition and no notch on the distributor. I knew this was likely to affect firing and running but it hadnt occurred to me it would affect cranking.

Currently with the pulley at TDC the distributor rotor is pointing at the plug lead at bottom right (closest to the block) so I've worked on the basis of that being #1. Could be completely wrong of course.

Thanks

Stewart

[StewRat]

That didn't make any difference.

Plugs in,coil disconnected (and pulled the fuse on the MSD ) crank speed was the same - v slow chug.

Did another experiment with everything hooked up but #2 and #4 plugs out - was interested to see if half the compression meant it would at least chug twice as fast.
But no difference, nor was it very asynchronous, basically no sign that alternate cylinders were open.

Stewart

[richie]

Sounds like starter is not man enough for job then, a new genuine bosch starter should deal with 10/1 and decent valve springs ok but if it is tired or a cheap brand then probably not

cheers Richie

[StewRat]

It's just tired probably.

And buying a new starter is a solution within my technical abilities.

Thanks for your help.

Stewart

[StewRat]

Seems the usual suspects don't have Bosch units in stock. Not those who are selling them for about 160 anyway.

The Hi Torque starter at http://www.rjvolksperformance.com/performance--race-parts.html is the same price as the best I can see the Bosch at.

Is it a straight replacement or does it need some finegaling ?

Any reason not to go for that - assuming it's in stock?

Stewart

[richie]

Going to send you a PM

[StewRat]

Got it - thanks.

[andy198712]

is the battery good too?

[Jesse/DVK]

You could also use a 6 volt starter with a correct 9 tooth gear.

I always used the following starter. Worked very good (11:1cr)

http://www.hotrod.nl/shop/contents/nl/p2285.html (it's in dutch but if you look for the same starter in the UK)

[StewRat]

Thanks folks

Yes the battery is good - new, fully charged at least.

I think I'm on the trail of a starter that is in stock so fingers crossed we may get this running before the week is out ....

[Jim Ratto]

I use a Porsche 911 starter. I had issues with SR17X not being able to crank against 10:1 and locked advance. The short Bosch number for the reman is SR68X. Been in my car for 8 years now.

[baz]

I use a Porsche 911 starter. I had issues with SR17X not being able to crank against 10:1 and locked advance. The short Bosch number for the reman is SR68X. Been in my car for 8 years now.

Are these a direct fit on a vw type 1 set up?

[Jim Ratto]

I use a Porsche 911 starter. I had issues with SR17X not being able to crank against 10:1 and locked advance. The short Bosch number for the reman is SR68X. Been in my car for 8 years now.

Are these a direct fit on a vw type 1 set up?

For 12V 130 tooth 200mm flywheel, yes. Bolts right in.

[baz]

Cool. I need a starter so think I'll get me one of these.

Thanks

[Fiatdude]

Probably to late -- But I really love using the starter for the auto sticks -- It just seems to crank my 2963 (and a lot of other engines thru the years) really easy ---

I've had a lot of issues with the Hi-Torq starters, think I've got a couple of them on the shelf because I've gotten tired of screwing with them....

[Rocket Ron]

Best starter I've had is a brise

Light weight and cranks every time but they are about £50 more than your normal high torque starter sold by heritage etc

[StewRat]

Several good tips here thanks.

I've got a new starter, installed it early doors yesterday and first impression is it cranks much faster

... but not for long, as the battery lets it down.
Hopefully it just needs charged, and is up to the job - hope to try again tomorrow.
Or my next question will be about batteries!

Not unexpectedly, with so much being new (to the car and to me) I'm at that stage of chasing down gremlins, and how often fixing one only reveals the next weak link in the chain ...

Stewart

[Andy]

I found using a 'Hard start relay' helped , it reduces the voltage drop through the ignition switch, I use an 065 size battery with an original style Bosch starter, this setup has worked reliably on my 9:1 compression engine for years.

[StewRat]

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAAAHAAAHHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
 

http://stewrat.stewarthutton.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/firsstart.mp4

[leec]

Well done 

[Neil Davies]

Superb! Chuffed for you Stewart! 

[StewRat]

Well I woudn't have got this far without the kindness of many (initially) strangers.

Unfortunately my celebration has been shortlived.

Last night I fired the Stew Rat up again briefly, just to check it wasnt a one off, shut it down and did some of the other jobs like actually fastening down bonnet and boot, fitting harness etc.

Went back up tonight thinking I was going to do the first cam run-in, maybe adjust timing, tweak the carbs and ...

Fires up fairly easily, I'm in the driver seat watching thru mirror and the open panel to engine bay.

Couple of flames thru the stinger, not unduly concerned as running even, trying to keep it at the Engle-recommended 1800rpm, some smoke appears, think it might be the exhaust paint, but shut down anyway to have a look ...



See a misshaped pushrod tube, take rocker assembly off and I have bent pushrods on #2. Banana shaped on exhaust and slightly bent on intake.

Pulled all the others and they seem ok.

Trying to work out what causes this?

The cam is pretty immovable so it has to be pushing the pushrod up, but against resistance - what? under what conditions would the other end of the pushrod be under force?
The most common reason seems to be stuck valves, but in my case with a newly assembled engine, the whole thing wouldnt have turned over on the wrench of that was the case would it?

Is there a timing or fueling condition that could have contributed to this?

Right now I'm reconciled to not getting on the strip this year, but ideally would like to work out if this is a potential lockup fix, or a wait for the new garden shed/workshop and take the engine there to strip down and rebuild.

(Fortunately I had a great day today playing with all 4 of my granddaughters on an unseasonably sunny day, otherwise I would be quite depressed right now)

Stewart

[baz]

Sorry to hear stewart. Hope it's something minor.

[StewRat]

Sorry to hear stewart. Hope it's something minor.

Thanks Baz*

Well, since coming home last night all my research so far only points to sticking valves as the cause - typically in older motors.
Feels like I wouldn't have been able to turn the engine over on a socket bar if that was the problem - and it's new heads/valves etc that all went together smoothly.

Realistically I need to pull the heads and barrels at the lockup even if bringing everything back home for check/rebuild, so I guess I do that next and see if anything shows up.

Being stoic to my wife last night I was all "of course I always knew I'd be constantly building/rebuilding/checking/replacing/upgrading the engine ..."
I just hoped I'd get further than this before rewinding 


*@Baz (let me know how you get on with JAE - as I will at least have 2 more pushrods needing shortened! Would be good to know they seem up for this work).

[baz]

Will do mate. Hope to have my stuff sent this week if I can work out my measurements.

Hope you find nothing too serious, I know all about stripping newly built motors unfortunately.

[Fiatdude]

I wanted to add a little to this topic -- --

No sooner than I bragged about how great my 16300 starters, I had mine go out --- Damn it!!! -- -- So, I jumped into my car and drove over to CarCraft in Riverside, all the while preparing to buy another 16300 (and get lunch at Zorba's).... Was setting there bench racing with Bob Godfrey and whining about losing a starter, Ed perks up and said that he had this new brand new starter "OE Brand Part Number BA16450" out of Florida making some really killer starters.... I'm going, Yeah, Yeah, I've heard this all before... So Ed brings one out. They are tiny and light!!! I'm looking at it and thinking there's no way that this little thing is gonna spin my 2963.... He says, you buy this, and if you don't like it, bring it back in the original box and put 100% of the money towards another starter.... OK, what do I have to lose except another chance to come over to CarCraft and go to Zorba's Hamburgers for lunch (I live for a Zorba Burger and Onion Rings from this place -- they are great!!!! Remember that the next time your in the area).....  SO, I bring this thing home, throw it into the car and this little starter is winging my engine at a higher RPM than I have ever had..... Really impressed with this little thing!!!!!!

[andy198712]

do those rockers move freely and have enough side play?