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Author Topic: The age old gearbox mounting  (Read 732 times)
Iryanu
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« on: June 25, 2018, 20:01:08 PM »

Hey all,

Has anybody had experience with mixing the gearbox mount types?

Background is, everything is solid mounted atm, big strap over bellhousing.

The car is unbearably loud inside. I love the induction roar but I can hear every single tooth of every gear engaging on the gearbox, 3rd and 4th are a joke at anything over 35mph despite a application of dynamat under the rear seat area / roof / quarter panels and doors. I have the rear seats in and parcel shelf too, and some dynamat turning up for the firewall panel itself, as well as the dynamat dual density foam / carpet to go on top and in the footwells.

I'm thinking the main source of noise in to the cabin is from the nosecone mount, if I change this out to a heavy duty rubber mount do you think it will quieten things down significantly? Or will it require changing the cradle back to rubber mounts also up at the clutch end.

Also, having a look at the CB Rhino mounts, are these just as loud as solid mounts?

Car is "only" a 15.1 second car with sharty tyres and a bad driver, I read that you should really only have to go away from decent OEM rubber mounts when the car is producing enough squirt to do a 12.

What are people running on the street out there, I want to be able to hear people talking next to me, it's like a shouting match at the moment!

Ryan

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brewsy
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2018, 20:23:20 PM »

Hi I,
I cant say I have experience of solid mounts but from what you described thats exactly what I want to avoid!

Currently going through the motions and buying all the bits so replacing all the beam mount rubbers, going with rubber nose cone and 'harder' rubbers which I just bought from WW in the states.
They make 2x versions of the rear mounts and I went for the harder version:
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111301263HD

Im thinking that good quality rubber (like from WW) will be solid enough to stop the transmission moving but stop lots of transmission noise.
Have you ever seen the size of the rubber suspension mounts on moderns?? Theres TONS of rubber and MORE space around them!

Marc

PS nice looking bike.. Triumph?
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Neil Davies
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2018, 20:52:15 PM »

I've got rubber mounts front and rear, the grey ones that Heritage used to sell. Don't know if they still do, I've had 'em in a box for years! Also got a rubber mounted mid mount and a traction bar too. It's loud but not stupidly. Most of the noise is from the breadbin turbo muffler!
I'll see if I can get a video up.
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2007cc, 48IDFs, street car. 14.45@93 on pump fuel, treads, muffler and fanbelt. October 2017!
Jim Ratto
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2018, 20:59:52 PM »

I have a padded strap at front
CB Rhino mounts at bellhousing and nose.

It's not as quiet as a stock Bug at all but it's 1,000,000x better than it was with solid Berg intermediate mount and soild and rubber mounts at back. Plus, parts aren't unscrewing or cracking after a few hours driving. Seriously, that isn't an urban legend that parts will deteriorate on your car with solid mounts. I have a list of parts that failed.

Depending on your exhaust, a GBE traction bar (rubber mounted) makes a sensible addition too.

Jim
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DER KLEINER PANZERS

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Iryanu
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2018, 21:35:32 PM »

Thanks for the link, those are the ones I've heard about! They're meant to be good. These solid mounts are utter madness. It's like being stuck inside a biscuit tin with john Bonham's ghost drumming on the lid. Haha.

Jim, I can get hold of the CB mounts easily, if you reckon they're a vast improvement then I reckon they're the boys for updated power. I have experience of things coming undone on the triumph (good spot marc) funnily enough. Vibration is the devil's wrench on them. I use green "wicking" loctite on all the fasteners. Nothings come off aside from an air filter top pre loctite days.

The exhaust should be able to take a GB traction bar it's a standard merger with side exit.

I'm frightened about putting the CBS on and it being too loud still, or putting rubber on and ripping them to shreds. The reason I went to solid was I snapped a nosecone gearbox clean off years ago with a turbo motor. New engine isn't as silly so I reckon back to rubber / CB will be ok. Lots to think about anyway.

Cheers.
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Iryanu
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 08:47:11 AM »

I've just ordered the CB rhino mounts and empi cradle with padded strap. I will most likely add a GBE traction bar at a later date.

Hope they're not too loud!  Grin

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leec
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2018, 09:05:13 AM »

Do you have a mid mount yet?
I have used the CB rhino mounts, they are much quieter than solid mounts. The set up on my 63 is gene berg mid mount and traction bar with VW heavy duty grey mounts (as Neil suggested) a very nice street set up.

Lee
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O/FF 26
Iryanu
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 09:46:42 AM »

I have a mid strap welded to the frame horns but it's just a strap to stop movement upwards. Not a proper midmount (bolted to box and upucks underneath frame horns).

I'm guessing now I'm moving away from solids it will need some extra support. I reckon the rubber berg bar will sort it.

I couldn't find the grey rubber front mount in the UK WW rears were available but the nosecone is nowhere to be found. Which is the one most likely to rip in half. Will see, if it's still too loud I can change the front mount to rubber without too much trouble.
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brewsy
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 21:26:41 PM »

Did you notice on the link you posted earlier that James is also selling VW hardened mounts??

http://www.statesidetuning.co.uk/newproducts.html

Marc
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Iryanu
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2018, 21:52:14 PM »

Did you notice on the link you posted earlier that James is also selling VW hardened mounts??

http://www.statesidetuning.co.uk/newproducts.html

Marc

Yeah I can get those other places, it's the uprated nosecone I was missing. Will see what these cb's are like, literally anything will be better than the current situation I reckon. Haha!
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Big Al
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2018, 09:18:42 AM »

I've used eurathane mouth in past with not a massive noise increase but maybe I'm less sensitive? I had a baja with solid mounts and had to literally drive it with ear defenders on cos was driving me crazy!
I have a solid top strap on my current box and I used sone cut down rubber mounts under it and have to say I was pleasantly supprised. Maybe worth a try and relatively quick and easy mod to do. Smiley
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Big Al
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 09:24:52 AM »

Top strap


Diy unit as one


I drilled through the forks and fix with nuts above and the plate bolted below. Then the tip strap bolts done on top with nylocks. Ive  since doubled up the bottom plate as bent when bolted down the strap hard! I've also added additional rubber centrally on top tho thinner than the cut down ford mount I fount at the side of the road Waste not, want not! :lol:

Obviously I'm running an 091 box but similar should work for you.
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Felix/DFL
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WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2018, 21:46:53 PM »

Hi Ryan,

for me this setup works very good:
HD rubber cradles at the back, additional nose support screwed to the box and welded clamps at horns with rubber donuts, oem/new rubber at the front, alu torque bars and a thin band at the back of the box. Not that big heavy metal band...the band really stopped wheel hop in my case!
Good Rubber is your friend. Not only by the car parts...
I throwed out the rhino piss yellow mounts, they are not exact in measurement and not really needed for a fast street car in my opinion. Shift fork urethan is even such a thing.
In my case 67typ-3 with 2.2L...

Have fun, I really dig your gasser inspired bug  Cool
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Martin S.
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2018, 23:12:03 PM »

I've had the rear Berg traction bar for years and finally ditched it when the mechanic who installed the new Rancho trans.
I couldn't believe how much quieter the interior became without it! A real improvement for comfortable driving with less noise and vibration.
I kept the Berg mid mount with its rubber mounts and I have the HD grey colour rubber mounts front and rear.
What I found unfortunately is the I can feel the frame horns slightly flexing over bumps in the road (thru the gas pedal).
Not wanting to go back to the noisy rear mount which transmits engine noise into the body (even with a rubber mount), instead this time I ordered a cheap EMPI truss bar and HD rear cradle that goes between the frame horns.
That will be installed in August so I hope to be reporting a nice quiet and smooth 200 hp ride without the engine wanting to go AWOL  Tongue
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Cal Look white 68 Bug with AJ Sims EFI Turbo 2332. 194hp 240tq @ 5500 rpm 3psi boost.
Iryanu
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 09:54:15 AM »

Spent Saturday sweating in 30c heat. I was determined not to pull the gearbox entirely as I have my spring plate tool loaned out at the moment, I could have just slid the axle tubes back "a bit" but didn't fancy it. Anyway, carbs off, disconnect the 6 wires I needed too, engine came out easy, bad news is there's gearbox oil in the bellhousing, looks like a leak from the input shaft seal that I have already replaced once but that's another story.

Loosened clutch cable, removed both the frame horn bolts allowing full movement backwards to get the new mount in, shift rod was a tight fit on to the gearbox input, took a while to remove that... Lever the gearbox back, solid mount falls out easily as it was not fitted with studs but through bolted separately.

All going well and I'm confident it'll all be over in a matter of moments. The CB nosecone mount.... Eventually levered the box back enough to get it in there using the strength of 10 ox. All good but what genius decided on the clearances round the nuts on this thing? You can't even get a thin-wall socket in there. Looking at getting Flanged M10 nuts with a 15mm head on as I just cannot have any faith in how tight I have them all atm. What a horrible design. Will deffo be getting a treatment of green Loctite!

Back up the frame horn end the new EMPI (every mistake passes inspection) HD cradle is in with the CB rhino rear mounts. I have no idea who to blame but either the drilling jig over at EMPI needs a bit of a reset, or the CB mounts need the holes moving, bit of a pig to get it all lined up but it's all in. The mounts feel pretty stiff but they do have some give. I have the new grey coloured rhino mounts.

I have a padded top strap with the kit, not sure whether I will fit it, the old one was unpadded. I also removed the top mid strap (unpadded), will probably re-fit this using some padding. I have two studs welded to the top of my frame horns that the top strap is fixed to. No pictures of it all in but will get some of the setup when I get back in the garage to fit the engine. If I turn the key and this thing is loud, I'm going to bust out the petrol and matches. Cheesy
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Iryanu
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2018, 10:03:44 AM »

Is this one for the weight saving thread?

Titanium M10x1.5 pitch Flanged nuts, with 14mm head size.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-titanium-flange-hex-head-nuts-M10x1-5mm-Thread-pitch-/231899626739

 Grin

I think they are also used on the shock bolts / engine bottom studs too?

Looking at fixings, I think the nuts I have on my mount are 17mm heads, and the stock ones should be 16mm across flats, which would explain my difficulty doing them all up. Ack!
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Neil Davies
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2018, 14:53:57 PM »

In the early days of Outlaw Flat Four, a mate and I had spent the day at Shakespeare County watching the racing, and were on our way home in my Beetle (1584cc, stock 1300 'box, 205/65's) when we saw a cal look oval ahead. We floored it and caught up with them, stayed with them at 55mph for a couple of minutes, then got bored and stuck it back up to 70 again. As we went past, we noticed that both driver and passenger were wearing ear defenders...The joys of IDAs, solid mounts and close ratio gears!
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2007cc, 48IDFs, street car. 14.45@93 on pump fuel, treads, muffler and fanbelt. October 2017!
Martin S.
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2018, 21:27:46 PM »

Are you going with a kafer cup truss bar setup as well?  Huh
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Cal Look white 68 Bug with AJ Sims EFI Turbo 2332. 194hp 240tq @ 5500 rpm 3psi boost.
Iryanu
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2018, 11:19:27 AM »

Are you going with a kafer cup truss bar setup as well?  Huh

Nah, I'm going to try it with just the rhinos on to begin with. Depending on the ratio of noise / wheel hop I'll add on a berg traction bar with rubber pucks or mid mount, you said the traction bar (engine support) one is noisy. Eesh. Will give it a go as is anyway. It wheel hopped even with solid mounts anyway so it'll deffo still do that I reckon.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 11:24:02 AM by Iryanu » Logged
Iryanu
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2018, 11:28:49 AM »

In the early days of Outlaw Flat Four, a mate and I had spent the day at Shakespeare County watching the racing, and were on our way home in my Beetle (1584cc, stock 1300 'box, 205/65's) when we saw a cal look oval ahead. We floored it and caught up with them, stayed with them at 55mph for a couple of minutes, then got bored and stuck it back up to 70 again. As we went past, we noticed that both driver and passenger were wearing ear defenders...The joys of IDAs, solid mounts and close ratio gears!

Sounds familiar, cruising speed is utterly awful as well. Rancho pro-comp box with a 3.88 r&p with a 1.04 4th I think. At least I didn't go for the 4.something eh. XD

Ruined my car basically and now slowly undoing it all  Cheesy

Will end up with stock upright wings and a fuel filler flap next. Somebody shoot me.
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alex d
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2018, 13:09:20 PM »

myself I noticed no increase in noise or vibration with the berg traction bar  Huh
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Martin S.
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2018, 16:04:58 PM »

myself I noticed no increase in noise or vibration with the berg traction bar  Huh


Maybe it depends on how mechanically noisy your engine is.
Even when it is just idling, if I feel the teflon/SS oil lines coming off the block, it feels like someone is hammering them with a ball pein hammer! I've had an aluminum weld crack on the fuel rail as well. But keep in mind this is a daily driver big bad ass motor and it deserves to shake. I just would like to keep that vibration isolated to the engine and not bolt it directly to the body.
The kafer brace makes more sense in that it keeps the engine tight to the chassis/ pan, and not the body.
Also make sure that your body is still sitting proudly on the rubber mounts near the shock towers as over time it can crush thru the seal and make direct contact with the pan. This is crucial in assembling a street driven vehicle.
A Berg rear bar negates all this rubber mounting isolation and makes sense on a drag car, but not on my car.
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Cal Look white 68 Bug with AJ Sims EFI Turbo 2332. 194hp 240tq @ 5500 rpm 3psi boost.
Jim Ratto
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2018, 17:39:57 PM »

To make a Berg traction bar you can use ball joint upper shock isolators above and below bar, with thick washers. I did this and bolted an old OEM cradle mount to center of bar where it contacts engine case.
The noise with or without isn't discernible in my car, as the noise of the Webers drowns out almost everything.

Another solution would be to make rubber isolators to go between Berg mounting brackets and inner body panel.

Jim
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DER KLEINER PANZERS

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
(George Orwell)
neil68
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2018, 06:02:47 AM »

Stock front rubber mount, Mohr Performance mid-mount, CB Rhino rear mounts and Berg traction bar.  12’s in the 1/4-mile and quiet on the street.  600+ trips down the drag strip on this gearbox without any issues.
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Neil
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'68 Beetle, 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 172 KM/H (107.5 MPH)
Dynojet Test:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo
Martin S.
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2018, 15:12:00 PM »

Also check the channels along each roof line drip rail where they end in the engine compartment.
The factory made a pillow from the headliner and stuffed it in there to stop engine noise from traveling thru those ducts into the car.
Sometimes that goes missing and you need to plug them with urethane foam or similar.
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Cal Look white 68 Bug with AJ Sims EFI Turbo 2332. 194hp 240tq @ 5500 rpm 3psi boost.
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