2187 cc planning

[Hustlers67]

Hi All,

A dropped intake valve has wrecked a head and a piston  , so its rebuild time.  Stripped it and the bottom end is still all good (heard the clatter noise of the valve bouncing against the piston and shut it down straight away).  

Full weight street beetle, not driven much, just a thrash about locally once a month or so.

- Forged 78.8 crank
- AS41 full flowed
- 26 shadeck oil pump, external filter and cooler
- Mallory unilite and 6AL box (bosch BR25 as a spare)
- 5.4 I beam rods with ARP bolts
- HD aluminium pushrods
- 1.3:1 rockers
- Dellorto 40 DRLA carbies
- 1.5" merged sidwinder
- built gearbox
- Kennedy stage 2 and kush disc.
- compression at 9.4:1

- new 94mm AA "true forged" piston and cylinders
- new CB Panchitos, cnc  chambers then flycut.  Matched manifolds (what a great price for heads and manifolds!)
- new CB 1400 straight cut gears
- new CB ultralight lifters
- new CB 2246 cam (314 duration, .411 lift at cam, 260 @ 0.050)

I was previously running CB 044 Magnums, so the panchitos are an upgrade.  Existing cam is a webcam 163 (with 6 degrees of added duration) so its 261 @ 0.050.  Bolted onto a dial-a-gear helical cam gear.

My question is more for the cam change than anything.  I figure the little bit more lift (when compared to the webcam) is not a bad thing.  Just wondering if the overall increase in duration (from 296 - 314) is too much of a jump?

Thoughts?  2246 Cam too much?

Hus

[Bruce]

The advertised number is meaningless.  Ignore it. Your two cams are 260 and 261*, so they'll react similar to each other.  IMO the difference is not worth the cam change.
If you were trying to make more HP, put bigger carbs on it.
Also, the duration is measured at 0.050", not half an inch.

[Jesse/DVK]

My previous engine was a 78.4x94 with 86c and 48 IDA's. Had Steve Tims Stage 2 plus heads on it made 188hp with 231nm of torque. Loved that engine. We built a similar combo for clubmate with 044 ported heads. 174hp with 218nm of torque. CR at 10.5:1.

[Hustlers67]

Yep, missed an all important "0" in my numbers, thanks Bruce. 

[Mike]

What brand of 1.3 rockers did you buy?

[Jim Ratto]

If the maker's advertised durations are both measured at same lift off seat (0.020"), then there will be a difference in how each cam affects your engine performance, powerband and longevity.
The CB cam, if the advertised of 314* is measured @ 0.020" has a really wide spread between the 0.050" 260* duration and the 314*.
Positive aspects:
this typically means a slower, gentler heel, ramp and nose profile- which equates to quieter valvetrain and longer valvetrain life. It will allow for more rpm with less spring pressure too, as far as lifter tracking the cam etc.
Negative:
the lift curve is lazier, meaning less valve lift velocity and acceleration, this can be checked by looking at duration at "mid-lifts" for example checking duration @ 0.200, 0.300 etc. The longer and sooner and later the cam hold the valves open @ mid lift (remember max lift is only there for a few crank degrees...) the more power the engine makes and the harder it will accelerate. The less = less engine response.

This is why the VZ cams are tiptoed around. If you've ever run a VZ grind, you'll know the engines respond explosively with VZ when compared to a more pedestrian W-series Engle, provided the engine is set up correctly. But this may be short lived.... and I am not just quoting somebody's catalog blurbs. I've run them and I've seen firsthand what can and will happen. But they do RUN- for a little while.

I would look for 35* approx. spread between .050 and 0.020 duration and around 0.540-0.550 lift at valve, if it were me, 267* @ 0.050 and 308-310 @ .020" and go for bigger carburetors.

[Larry S]

Good read guys, I have started buying parts for a 2017cc motor. My case is done and I have a set of 48's. I am going to get a DPR 78.4 crank. I am looking at the Panchito heads very closely. Possibly a K8 cam, or something close.....I want a good running car but not over the top (read 2-stroke power band). Jim what cam would you recommend? what compression. I am going to run a short rod so the motor fits in my 56.
 back in 1982 I had a 1755cc (69 x 90 NPR's) with a VZ cam and big welded heads, 48's etc and it ran so good, man that car was fast for what it had, but the power band was about 4200-7300, great for a young kid racing around. I also had a 2276 with an FK89 with dyno soar heads, weekend warrior motor and I did not care for it on the street, it was to much for my type of driving.
I appreciate any feedback and info, I have been out of the hobby for a long time motor building wise. I did build a 1776 with a C35 cam and Steve Tims 40 x 35.5 heads (not ported just opened up to the valve size) about 7-8 years ago and it ran good, it was a very good sounding motor.

Larry

[Jim Ratto]

Good read guys, I have started buying parts for a 2017cc motor. My case is done and I have a set of 48's. I am going to get a DPR 78.4 crank. I am looking at the Panchito heads very closely. Possibly a K8 cam, or something close.....I want a good running car but not over the top (read 2-stroke power band). Jim what cam would you recommend? what compression. I am going to run a short rod so the motor fits in my 56.
 back in 1982 I had a 1755cc (69 x 90 NPR's) with a VZ cam and big welded heads, 48's etc and it ran so good, man that car was fast for what it had, but the power band was about 4200-7300, great for a young kid racing around. I also had a 2276 with an FK89 with dyno soar heads, weekend warrior motor and I did not care for it on the street, it was to much for my type of driving.
I appreciate any feedback and info, I have been out of the hobby for a long time motor building wise. I did build a 1776 with a C35 cam and Steve Tims 40 x 35.5 heads (not ported just opened up to the valve size) about 7-8 years ago and it ran good, it was a very good sounding motor.

Larry

depends on gearing, how you'll expect to use the car and compression you intend to use.

[Larry S]

Jim,
I am thinking 4:11 R&P, 1.48 3rd, 1.04 4th, compression 9-9.5 range, weekend car, mostly around town, maybe one hour range around my area. Joplin is about 15 miles from my house and they have lots of cruise nights.....I am open to ideas on gearing, compression etc. I haven't had the trans built yet. I ran a 1.58 and 1.21 back in the day with a 4:11 but it is more rural out here compared to SoCal.
Thanks,

Larry

[Jim Ratto]

Jim,
I am thinking 4:11 R&P, 1.48 3rd, 1.04 4th, compression 9-9.5 range, weekend car, mostly around town, maybe one hour range around my area. Joplin is about 15 miles from my house and they have lots of cruise nights.....I am open to ideas on gearing, compression etc. I haven't had the trans built yet. I ran a 1.58 and 1.21 back in the day with a 4:11 but it is more rural out here compared to SoCal.
Thanks,

Larry

W130 with 1.25:1 or K10 with 1.4

40mm valve in good ported head, 9.5:1, 48IDA Webers with 40mm venture, cam "straight up" will theoretically make 164hp @ 6800, power band from 4100 to 7500
Advanced the intake lift center to 104 (4 degrees adv) and peak power comes down to 6300, power band 3800-6900, using same cam(s)

[RaptorLou]

I have ran two sets of Panchitos now and they do pretty well on my 2110 race motor, nice small ports for lots of velocity. I have a couple of sets selling soon if interested.
Lou

[Larry S]

Thanks for the guidance Jim, I guess I still have some memory because I just received a set of 40 mm vents for my IDA's in the mail on Thursday, I was thinking that would be close. I picked them up from an ad on the samba. Those numbers sound good to me.

Lou I would be interested in what you are selling so when you get to that point message me and we can discuss.

Thanks,

Larry

[Hustlers67]

Thanks for the responses.  Parts have arrived i'll start piecing it all together again soon. 

Ill keep an eye out for a 1 5/8th sidewinder, as I think I might need to go a bit bigger than the 1.5" I currently plan on running.  Any thoughts on this component in the overall collection of parts?

[Larry S]

keep us updated and let us know how it runs.

Larry