engine: 2 combo's

[nicolas]

ok so i asked the shop if i could fit 94 pistons and cylinders and it is within the budget.
so for once i try to make a post that makes some sense. i have thought about 2 engine combo's that seem to be a good idea. there isn't much difference, but i guess there will be some differences in building the engines and they will require different carbs and exhausts. maybe different cams.

here is what i have come up with so far:

combo 1: will be the 'cheapest' and most basic idea, this is what i started with in the first place. just get the crank in the case, have a better set of pistons and cylinders as opposed to the 87's i have now and a new cam that would suit the combo better.
2007cc engine: with 78 DPR welded crank, lightened flywheel, type3 setup and cooling. extra oilfilter and cooler via fullflow. a set of 90.5 pistons and cylinders and short manifolds that are matchported by me to a set of 42x37 D-port heads. they are quite big, so i hope i can match the manifolds. the heads came of a car that was driven in 6 and 24 hours races. i have been able to make a deal with the shop to buy a set of 44 idf's so that should make a better option as my current 40 IDF's. the header is a 1 1/2 inch type3 merged one without heatherboxes from SS and a bugpack hideaway muffler.
the cam will be a W125 on 1.25 rockers (cheapest option as i can get the cam for a better price) or a FK8 but i need to find 1.4 rockers. but there is still some debate about this option.

combo 2: basically the same featues as the combo above. but 94's (thanks Zach...) and i think it will need a bigger exhaust; or has that nothing to do with the displacement. and a different cam that suits this combo better.

this is what i could come up with. i have thought to make a 'quick' change, but i see now that it seems better to think this through a little better and have a good engine insted. the option of the 42 dcnf's is still open, but it seems hard to come by those carbs here in europe.
i plan to use and abuse the engine on the street mostly and get the car to Bitburg next year and race it as much as possible. when i look at the poor 1641cc engine it will be best to put in the extra effort to have it done right.
transmission is a stock type3, but i have been thinking about sacraficing some highway quietness in favor of a combo that will see something like a 4.12 RP and 3.78 first, 2.21 second, 1.38 third and 1.04 fourth. or something similar. for now it will go with the stock type3, because i haven't any clue in who can build transmissions and where to buy parts or so. i have a spare type3 box that will be the basis of that trans and some crown covers, but that is really it at the moment. plus i will keep my transmissionquest for a different topic.

[Donny B.]

Unless you are running an upright engine in your Type III I would stay with the 90.5s.  The 94s don't have a lot of space between them and the Type III cooling system is marginal at best.  The 2007 is a nice engine.  I would look for a pair of 42 or 44 DCNFs and use Berg Short manifolds.  Everything will fit under the engine cover.  Of course if it's an upright engine everything works.  I currently have a 2007 in my '66 Bug running a K8 cam with 1.4 rockers and heads ported at the Bergs with 40x37.5 valves.  It runs strong and is a very nice driver.  Oh yeah running a 1 5/8 exhaust.

[louisb]

I agree with Don on the engine size unless you convert to an upright. Besides, the TIII fan has a tendency to come apart at higher rpms and higher hp. (6000+) Another cam you might look into if you already have the 1.25s is the w120. (Or run it with stock ratios.) I think Sarge runs this combo. Better low end for that heavy TIII.

--louis

[Diederick/DVK]

I think Sarge runs this combo.

sarge has always had very good luck with the w125 (that's what i remember from the ultra feature of one year ago) 

[stealth67vw]

Sarge runs a W125. He even ran one in a single port with a Zenith back in the day. It's my favorite cam too.

[louisb]

Okay, then a 125. But don't run that with 1.25s lol.Still, the w120 sounds like a good cam for that engine. rpm from 1000 - 5500ish.

--louis

[alex d]

for a type 3 I'd choose 90.5s and a cam with less duration than a w125

[Bewitched666]

I would go with a 1 5/8 inch header for more breathing and i would go with the 44 carbs

[Jim Ratto]

Hi Nicolas, glad to hear my old crank is causing you to wring your hands so much in debate over what to do.

First thing I would ask, in an effort to help you: are you racing the car or are you driving the car? Or both?

Next, how serious are you about getting rid of stock gears for the close ratios? If you build the engine to work with them, the stock gears will work for you, if you want to drive the car and race it. But you can't go overboard with camshaft etc.

If it were my car, I'd want to drive it, and I'd leave the stock gears in it, or go 5 speed. Nothing made me HATE my car more than close 3rd and 4th in a 4 speed. I like driving my car, and that 1.12 4th killed that real quick. Maybe a 1.04 is better, I don't know. Anyway, my Bug went 13.70's on worn out radials and stock 4.12 transaxle, pump gas, full weight. Trust me, going 14's in a VW is fast enough, as far as the sensation. If you need a specific number on a time slip, instead of scaring the socks off of you, then you're going to spend lots of sweet moohlah and possibly never drive car, and end up in the "burnt out" post I wrote. Ok, I still haven't answered your question, have I?
I like the 94 x 78 in my car, but Don B does have a great point: the 94's have less surface area as far as fins go, and another point, your case has to be bored larger....which isn't a big deal if the motor never runs hot. But if it does get hot (Type 3 cooling, Type 3 weight, heavy right foot, big motor....) you can bet that # 3 stud is going to want to pull and the case will crack. If you're using some old fatigued case that's years old (and possibly been overheated before) it will happen sooner than later. You cannot imagine how many hot rod cases we saw come through Buggy House for machine work because they were split up the back, and/or had the LH galley plugs falling out. My friend Richard Mitchell that posts here occasionally is a classic example. His motor was a mild 1776, and suffered the crack up #3. So for your car, #1. I'd make sure your case is absolutely perfect, and if not, buy a new one. #2. I'd stick with 90.5's because of reasons above
#3. Keep CR under 8.5:1 and run Engle 125 with 1.25 rockers, conservatively ported 40 x 37.5 heads, 1-5/8 exhaust, whatever carbs as long as they are 44mm or larger (W125 and 40IDFs doesn't work trust me).
#4. Fabricate some kind of oil system that is going to keep oil @ 200F max under the WORST conditions. It can be tough to full flow a Type 3 because of fan housing, but it can be done. I built a 1776 for an ex girlfriend that was full flowed with Berg pump cover etc. I used die grinder and relieved fan housing then siliconed up the gaps once fan went together. A big motor in a Beetle needs an external cooler for warm weather, so a Type 3 will as well. A fair sized cooler mounted under torsion housing in airstream or next to transaxle with electric fan will do the trick.

Of course, you can do all of this and still have a hot running motor if you don't tune it correctly. Also, paint cylinders flat black, run an efficient muffler, run good fuel....etc.

Hope this helps. Been there, done that.

[Zach Gomulka]

I had a 1776 in a type 3, and I do believe that the cooling system leaves something to be desired over a type 1. BUT... I think it can be done. After I built my 1776 I always wished I would have just stepped up and built a 1915. Use all German tin, make sure all seals are in place (not many on a t3), and use a good size external oil cooler and you will be fine.
As for the cam... what do you really want the car to do?? For a beetle the engle 125 x 1.25 is great, but remember you are pushing around an extra 300lbs or so. You will need more torque than a beetle. You could go with the 120 x 1.25, that will still make power up to 7k if your heads, carbs, and exhaust can flow it, but will have a little more bottom end than the 125. From the looks of it, I think that is what would make you happiest. They are right about the t3 fan wanting to come apart, too. Another reason to keep the rpm range lower and use a smaller cam. You could even go with the 110 if you want a real stump puller, and it will still make horsepower over 6k rpm. The 110 cam will also work well with your current 40IDF's, but I would advise using the CB update kit on the carbs to help them flow more.

Ok, with all that said, I would build your 2165 one of these two ways:

For more bottom end...
110 x 1.25
8.5:1
40IDFs with CB update kits (you could always add those later)
1 1/2" header

For more top end...
120 x 1.25
9:1
44DCNFs (DCNFs are better suited for t3 motors, but 44IDFs will still work)
1 5/8" header

[The Ideaman]

My (Daniel Hood's) fastback has a 2110 CB motor (90.5x82) with a K8 and 1.4's.  You can weld a type 3 fan, just like a type 1.  Runs very well with 8.5 to 1 compression.  A couple brass fittings can route the oil lines around everything with a Berg cover.  The heatshields should help keep the head temps down.

[Zach Gomulka]

If it were my car, I'd want to drive it, and I'd leave the stock gears in it, or go 5 speed. Nothing made me HATE my car more than close 3rd and 4th in a 4 speed. I like driving my car, and that 1.12 4th killed that real quick. Maybe a 1.04 is better, I don't know.

You are soooooooooo right. And no, a 1.04 4th still sucks!!!  

[Felix/DFL]

I would definetly go with the W125 or W130.
I had a W120 with 1:1,25 and "done" 1,6ltr. stockvalve heads in my 1776ccm and it pulled nice.
Now I converted to the W125 with 1:1,25 but that was a bit too much valvelift for those tiny valves so I only installed the 1:1,25 on the exhaust valves and orig. 1:1,15 rockers at the inlets.
And that really works fine pulls to 6500U/min and has even got low end power.
Ran down a 15,6sec at DD5 with my notch.
(1 1/2 header, 40 Webers/32mm Venturis)

I would set the compression not lower than 9,5:1 as we have Super Plus here in Europe

[Jim Ratto]

right, the 125 has earned this erroneous reputation as a "wild" cam for the street, but in all honesty, in a decent sized engine, it is quite docile. In a 1776 I would say it is on the upper end side, but it does work, yes on the street. 1914? Perfect cam for very hot street use. Stroker engine? A perfect daily driver cam if coupled with correct carburetion and heads. The 120 is perfect for 90.5 x 69 cars, with 2 2bbl carbs. In a larger engine, it's out of breath by 6000. Another tip, nicolas, the extra duration of the 125 will allow more efficient breathing and this will help your cooling.

Have fun.

[wolfswest]

nicolas,

I see you are buying or already bought some parts in a local vw gearhead shop.  I suppose it is in Belgium.  I don't now that much about engines but in my carrier of building a fast vw I've seen a few shops around here.  So I can give you some hints.  If you don't want to tell the name of the shop here, please PB me...

Dem

[nicolas]

ok so what i can make from all this is that i would be better of with 90.5 because of cooling issues and fitting of the engine tin. so it brings me back to plan A. and as far as the cam goes i think i will opt for the W125 but maybe leave it with 1.1 rockers or a fk8 on 1.4's which is quite similar, not decided on that yet.

as far as cooling is concerned, i have allready the experience of cooling the 1641 with 9 CR, it has been fullflowed (not a hackjob as before, but indeed nicely prepared outlet end some bits of silicone to seal everything closed. that is run in conjunction with a external cooler with fan and i must say it works good. i have been able to keep temperatures around 75-80°C on street and 90°C sometimes 100°C on highways. so that has to be the same. the CR of this engine will be measured out at 8.5 to 9, surely nothing more as it will be a street engine for the best part of the year, and a racecar, whenever possible. 

the case is indeed an older one, but fully checked and it is a AS21 case, which should be of better quality. there are 8mm studs insed of the larger 10mm on older cases. so compression will not be set too high. i know we have better fuel as in the states, but we don't have the very high octane fancy stuff like the Germans do. too bad... but yes we have super plus and that is what i will run.

so i hope i didn't miss any good advice, if so please tell me so. i have to get in though with ABP (the engine builder: he knows engines, but i just like to do the stuff myself and learn some things along the way. some people don't like his shop, but i personally have had a good relationship with him and i have confidence in his expertise, so i will stick with him.)

the transmission should be left alone than... the only concern i have is the tall 4th gear. i never used it in dragraces and i guess i will continue to use 3 gears to run the 1/4mile. fine by me as long as i will be able to get the car into high or mid 14's, that would be great,but isn't the main goal. but i can tell you now i would be desapointed if it doesn't go low 15's. 

anyway thanks allready for shedding some light on the matter, feel free to help me some more

[louisb]

and as far as the cam goes i think i will opt for the W125 but maybe leave it with 1.1 rockers

I was talking to Sarge about the 125 and his comments were not to run .125 rockers with it due to accelerated valve guide wear. Just a thought.

--louis

[nicolas]

and as far as the cam goes i think i will opt for the W125 but maybe leave it with 1.1 rockers

I was talking to Sarge about the 125 and his comments were not to run .125 rockers with it due to accelerated valve guide wear. Just a thought.

--louis

that is the reason i was looking for a FK8 and some 1.4 rockers. but i think W125 and 1.1's will do the same. they seem to be similar in use and performance, but they are made for different rockers. they both are in the mix, just don't know what will make in the engine at this point.

thanks for the advice and asking Sarge.

[Jim Ratto]

another cam to consider is Web 110. I ran it in my 2054 with 48's and it ran from idle to 6000.

[nicolas]

looks nice, makes me think about the GB297A. a friend has that one in his 1776 engine for a bus and his engine doesn't run because of the heads that are stock. but it can work in a 2006cc engine.
what is the benefit of a shorter duration? i think it has more torque. but what does lift do? i thought duration shouldn't exceed 300° so i chose a cam closest to that...

[Jim Ratto]

looks nice, makes me think about the GB297A. a friend has that one in his 1776 engine for a bus and his engine doesn't run because of the heads that are stock. but it can work in a 2006cc engine.
what is the benefit of a shorter duration? i think it has more torque. but what does lift do? i thought duration shouldn't exceed 300° so i chose a cam closest to that...

I'm no expert, but I'd be looking at duration @ .050" as well as the catalog duration (typically measured at .020") but also nicolas, in my opinion, you need to think about airspeed through intake and exhaust. You can drop in a somewhat conservative cam like 125 but then ruin the tune of the motor with big whopping intake and exhaust ports. This is why I got rid of the heads that were on my 2054 and went back to my Denham heads. I even took my heads back to Jeff before I built this last engine, and asked him if he thought there was more to get out of them for the street, and he said to leave them as is, except for some chamber work. So I used them as is on my 94 x 78, with FK45 and 37mm vents. Anyway, think about the heads too.

BTW: I haven't overdosed on Zotz.

[nicolas]

hmm that is what i have been thinking about also... i have seen the heads, and they are opened up nicely, but i still have to deal with the very short manifolds and heads that are not too big. i have a set of 40x35 heads but these have a plug that was ripped out and another one that sat crooked and needs to be looked at also. but i am not a fan of using a helicone in a head honestly. so that is why i kinda jumped on the heads really. a friend of mine is selling some 'los banditos' heads, but i can't say i am a fan of the name... not sure if they are good or not. and maybe they need porting as well and that wouldn't be a step forward either.

so i have to get the heads and see what they really look like and post some pics of them. but i am not sure when i can get them.

they will be important in how the engine can breath, so i have to do some more research on them.

[louisb]

hmm that is what i have been thinking about also... i have seen the heads, and they are opened up nicely, but i still have to deal with the very short manifolds and heads that are not too big. i have a set of 40x35 heads but these have a plug that was ripped out and another one that sat crooked and needs to be looked at also. but i am not a fan of using a helicone in a head honestly. so that is why i kinda jumped on the heads really. a friend of mine is selling some 'los banditos' heads, but i can't say i am a fan of the name... not sure if they are good or not. and maybe they need porting as well and that wouldn't be a step forward either.

so i have to get the heads and see what they really look like and post some pics of them. but i am not sure when i can get them.

they will be important in how the engine can breath, so i have to do some more research on them.

Those los banditos heads are sold by CB. I don't think they have any porting done to them.

--louis

[nicolas]

yes they come from CB, but i can't make up if these are stock ported heads. i think for this engine i have to look at some CNC roundports, or something similar

anyway i have called up the shop and talked some more and made up my mind about the combo; it will be a 78x90.5 engine with the W125 cam (for oldschoolfeel) and on 1.1 rockers (solid shafts), i still can get the 44 idf's with 36 vents. and the 1 1/2 header for now. i will see how it performs and if necessary i will have to get a bigger header afterwards. CR will be 8.5 to 9.

i only hope the machining isn't going to take too long as i am looking forward to put this baby together.

[javabug]

another cam to consider is Web 110. I ran it in my 2054 with 48's and it ran from idle to 6000.

Jim, what cam did you run once that was killer out on the highway, if I remember correctly?  I think it was a 120, but WebCam?  Maybe it was the 110 mentioned here...only thing I remember is it was numbered like an Engle, but was a WebCam.

[Jim Ratto]

another cam to consider is Web 110. I ran it in my 2054 with 48's and it ran from idle to 6000.

Jim, what cam did you run once that was killer out on the highway, if I remember correctly?  I think it was a 120, but WebCam?  Maybe it was the 110 mentioned here...only thing I remember is it was numbered like an Engle, but was a WebCam.

hey Mike, no that was the good ol'  Engle 125

hey I got your message last night 8pm PST...was that too late to call you back?

will you pm me your # if I can reach you today while I am at work?

see ya

[stealth67vw]

another cam to consider is Web 110. I ran it in my 2054 with 48's and it ran from idle to 6000.

Jim, what cam did you run once that was killer out on the highway, if I remember correctly?  I think it was a 120, but WebCam?  Maybe it was the 110 mentioned here...only thing I remember is it was numbered like an Engle, but was a WebCam.

In my IDA'd 1776 the W125 was a perfect freeway cam. At 65 mph in 4th gear, it was right in the power band. Stomp on it and you were going a hundred in no time, even up a grade.

[javabug]

Jim, will send a PM in a sec.

I think I want to try a W125 sometime...maybe when I re-build my 1835...I love a car that rips out on the highway.

[Jim Ratto]

Jim, will send a PM in a sec.

I think I want to try a W125 sometime...maybe when I re-build my 1835...I love a car that rips out on the highway.

there was a guy that used to come in to BH that had a clean car, built an 1835 with D port 42 x 37, W125 and Dellorto 48's and it ran very well.

[nicolas]

i would love the idea of an engine having some extra oumph! when you hit the trottle on the freeway. so i guess it will be a W125 for sure then. and hopefully the bottom end will make enough torque as well.
i almost am positive it will work out nicely if i can match the heads to that combo, as i see other 2006cc engines that run wilder cams like W130 and W140 (Carlos i am looking at your enginespecs here  ) and i think they get to places... those are far wilder cams and are made to run on streetengines as well.