Request for EFI N/A owners

[baz]

I'm having trouble getting my 2276 efi motor running smooth and was hoping I could have a look at some maps others are using on similar spec engines.

Any efi owners on here able to help me out?

[richie]

S40? Got a few, can send you one of mine if that helps, but lots of variables starting with injector size, also  your injectors might need a clean after sitting for so long, I start by changing top filters in them

cheers Richie

[baz]

Thanks Richie, yes s40, injectors are 380cc. Good tip on cleaning them cheers.

What's max advance typically on something like this?

[richie]

To start with just put a ignition map to copy a distributor, so 10btdc at 1000rpm and 30btdc by 3000rpm and leave it all at 30btdc after that to begin with, did you set up crank trigger angle ok?

[baz]

I'll need to recheck crank trigger angle, I know gap is OK.

I tried setting ignition curve like a distributor earlier, I'm struggling with transitioning from 1800 - 3000rpm and can't work out why. Hopefully a look at a good map will help.

[Martin S.]

Here’s mine. Civilized 194hp / 5500rpm 2332 everyday car.

[richie]

I'll need to recheck crank trigger angle, I know gap is OK.

I tried setting ignition curve like a distributor earlier, I'm struggling with transitioning from 1800 - 3000rpm and can't work out why. Hopefully a look at a good map will help.

1st thing is to check crank trigger angle and set it with timing light, if that isnt correct then everything else is off and will just confuse you

[baz]

Dave verified the timing the other day and it was all good, I was thinking about the sensor position degree which I guess is right too if timing is right

[baz]

Here’s mine. Civilized 194hp / 5500rpm 2332 everyday car.

Thanks Martin, lot of advance there in places. I've max of 30 right now but I guess it could take a lot more.

[andy198712]

Yeah if your timing light is saying the same as what your laptop is, your good to go.

What’s your afr gauge doing when it runs rough in the transition? Is it slow steady transition or mash the pedal transition?

[baz]

Thanks Andy, afr is between 12 and 13 at idle and low revs, I try ring revs up gradually towards 2k and its like its missing or something, it struggles to get above a point around 1800 afr doesn't change a lot, if I keep my foot in it will get through 2000 but sounds rough.

[richie]

Here’s mine. Civilized 194hp / 5500rpm 2332 everyday car.

Thanks Martin, lot of advance there in places. I've max of 30 right now but I guess it could take a lot more.

Thats a really strange ignition map in my mind but Martin & I see some things differently anyway 


Here's a couple of s40 ignition maps, one is mine for my 67 and other is direct from DTA for a zetec

[richie]

I just emailed you a complete s40 map to try, one thought have you set your throttle stops? if it isnt seeing correct TPS position as you open throttle it will confuse it

[baz]

Thanks Richie, I spent the last hour copying a map I found online for a NA 2276 and it likes it much better than where it was. It seems to me it likes full advance before 2500, I've given it 32 at 2500 and it's revving much more freely. I'll have a look at your maps now and see what I can change.

[Martin S.]

You're right, my ignition table is quite different. Notice that the table is based on vacuum and yours is based on throttle position.
I would love to take credit for tuning this beast, but I can't unfortunately.
If anyone can explain the differences in EFI ignition systems I would be all ears. Electromotive also sells their ignition systems as standalone so it is likely a specialty for them. They also invented COP electronic ignition back in the 60s which was adopted by GM.
Here is another screenie showing a 3D graph of advance vs vacuum with RPM as the third variable to better visualize what is going on. I haven't tried a timing light which would be cool to see.

[Martin S.]

Here's another interesting screenie where the tuner used the option for pulling advance out, based on manifold temp (MAT).
Starting at 90 deg C there is a little less advance, maybe to help stop pre-ignition when getting super hot?

[baz]

Can anyone have a look at these throttle transients and see what's right and wrong with them please. The engine bogs and the afr shoots to 22 when I stab it off idle. If I increase revs gently it revs OK, still a little rough around 2k afr stays around 12-13.  Its a street motor that should make good low to mid range power, cam spec similar to 86b 42x37mm heads with good air speed. 10.5 cr.


Hot tip in



Hot tip out



Cold tip in



Cold tip out

[richie]

That looks wrong way round to me, its adding 100% down low from 1501-3000rpm when its hot but only 25% when its cold

[baz]

Thanks Richie, should have just emailed you but didn't want to be hassling you 

That 100% hot tip in is where I put it only this morning, engine was hot at the time, and didn't change other settings, I haven't tried anything else with it been trying to book a rolling road.

[andy198712]

Have you got a picture of your fuel map?

[baz]

Fuel table, I've been concentrating on up to 4k an 50% throttle for now.

[BeetleBug]

Please show us the fuel map in 3D cells as well. There you can easily spot if there is anything strange going on and even out the cells "on the fly". Fine tuning the fuel map can be quite time consuming.

-BB-

[baz]

Please show us the fuel map in 3D cells as well. There you can easily spot if there is anything strange going on and even out the cells "on the fly". Fine tuning the fuel map can be quite time consuming.

-BB-

Looks a mess now that I look at it! It looked a lot smoother when I got it but I've changed quite a bit.




Of the two rolling road specialists I've phoned to try book a session both have failed to get back to me with an answer 

[andy198712]

That software does make it hard to analyse, but then again I’m used to how megasquirt lay it out

So if when you stab it the throttle at idle and it bogs lean

Go to the part of the map at low rpm but high throttle position and add some fuel in there, chances are you won’t drive in that part but it only gets used during revving at idle.
It takes a while to hit all the bins in the table are some are never normally used in driving ect

Also in that last picture, is that with the engine running? I only ask as your at 14% throttle.

[baz]

Andy I've been watching cells as I rev it to see where adjustments were needed, when I revved slowly I needed to pull fuel out of those mid throttle low rpm areas as it was bogging down rich. When I stab it it goes lean on the afr which led me to think its throttle transients, and I can't make head nor tail of them.

[andy198712]

I’ve found it can’t be both, you want you acceleration enrichment (AE) to be correct when driving too which may be different to no load revving, hence you can use your map to help it.

Example when you slow rev it, let’s say 50% TPS at idle the revs pick up and your now at 1200 or more rpm on your table.
When you stab the throttle it will be be at a lower RPM and maybe higher TPS, this is a point you won’t hit when driving ever, so don’t set up you AE just for this situation.
Set you AE for driving situations and use you map in these areas to help the AE

If any of that makes sense?

Does the software have any self tuning options from a target AFR table?

You’ll get there, just takes time at the start then it’s just fine tuning after that

[BeetleBug]

Looks a mess now that I look at it! It looked a lot smoother when I got it but I've changed quite a bit. Of the two rolling road specialists I've phoned to try book a session both have failed to get back to me with an answer 

That is indeed a bit messy. There is no need for a rolling road as long as you have a friend that can either control the PC or the car while you change the map. This is of course only valid as long as your car is driveable.... and not a turbo car. I still remember the last time I was sitting in the passenger seat doing the mapping while going sideways @ 90 - 100 mph when the boost kicked in 

-BB-

[Martin S.]

Don’t feel bad if you can’t nail it in the time you hoped. I was told that many people spend hundreds of hours tuning this way.
We went out twice together tuning my turbo. Once was combined with a highway trip to a cottage for a bbq. After getting happy with the tune, I killed the engine at speed and coasted before starting it up which allowed the tune to load into the ECU from the laptop. I haven’t touched mine ever after that. Scared to!
To do that so quick or at all you need experience.(like a new V8 engine -never run it took 11 quarter mile runs with data logging to achieve a world record 7 second quarter)

[baz]

Back at it today after a bit of a break, I changed the filters in the injectors and it seems to have improved things a little. I've got an annoying problem where it seemingly randomly decides to lean out to 22 and die when trying to come off idle, no amount of feathering will save it.
Any ideas on what could be causing this, it's annoying the hell out of me and every time it stalls when hot I need to give the starter a rest or it won't engage, gonna swap starters tomorrow to one with a freshly cleaned and greased solenoid.

Grand total of 7 miles done so far, most of them on my driveway while I'm ranting the hideaway exhaust is a fucking terrible design with the tip pointed at the floor I'm creating dust storms that cake the car and everything else on the drive in dust. Grrrr

[Martin S.]

How’s the fuel pressure? First time out with my new engine when it had one those small glass fuel filters on it, the filter started plugging up killing the engine. After that it got an oil filter as a gas filter (similar to a 356) and problem solved.