Motul 300V Drag Racing?

[neil68]

Anyone using Motul 300V in their street-strip or drag race engine?  Experiences?  Thank you.

[pupjoint]

Anyone using Motul 300V in their street-strip or drag race engine?  Experiences?  Thank you.

I use 300v in my 2332 but i only had the engine running for less than 2 months and little mileage so nothing much to report. i use 300v in my turbo boxer Subaru for 5 years now. mainly because that's whats available to me here unlike the normal choices in the US.

[PPRMicke]

This type of oil is for today's engines with less bearing play
VW engine has bearing play  is for SAE 30

If you drive with E85, the oil does not mix with it
/// Micke

[laurent o]

i use 10w40 300V in my drag .good oïl !

[samotorsport]

I use Castrol Classic 20w50 in all of my aircooled engines. Even dragrace with 8000 rpm.
Never had any issues with it . Been running it for more than 5 years now



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[neil68]

i use 10w40 300V in my drag .good oïl !

Thank you.  I have some 300V in 5W40 viscosity on the shelf. Mornings can be verycold here in Canada, so I’ve always used 5W40 in my 2332 cc.  I’ll give it a try next.

[Udo]

The best oil you can get , what I found out. I use it with „ester“

[jim martin]

Neal all I know is when and if you dump oil on the track
And the first words out of the track officials mouth is
“ Dino oil or synthetic “ and you say synthetic.
Man that is like the stare of death.
 Never ran synthetic again , no gain for short drag use ,
maybe For extended full out driving for long periods I can see it
When temps get real high

[neil68]

Jim, I’ve heard that about drag strips.  Been running synthetic for 15 years, thus far.  Knock on wood:)

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
Unfortunately I do not know the Motul that well, so I will not comment on that.
I normally stay out of discussions like this, because one solution can be as good as the next. In an aircooled engine there are so many variables that it almost hurts. If I simplify it about as much as I can we can put it this way:
Oil pump size and efficiency against viscosity, and
ability to soak heat and release it again.

An engine built with loose tolerances and racing naturally needs a higher viscosity than a street engine built with tighter tolerances

Next the factory recommendation on viscosity versus temperature is not fully usable anymore because especially within the last approx 20 years oil has changed and in most cases improved significantly.

Now, some of you may remember that I did a performance test back in 2005 with oil viscosity versus oil pump size, and the results surprised sevaral people, even folks who has been in the business for a long time. Anyway, short recap. Test engine was a 2 liter VW type 4 stock internals, 914 cam, "E" heads w competition seat job and 9-1 CR, 40 Dells w. 32 mm venturies and a merge buggy header.
Castrol 20w50 was used as the "fatty" oil because it is widely used and ads are everywhere. Cheap IQX 15w40 mineral oil with a shot of Zddp additive was used as the regular oil. We tried with a 30 mm, 26 mm and stock 24 mm oil puimp. At 5000 rpm there was 5 hp increase from the 30 mm pump and 20w50 to a 24 mm pump and 15w40.
The stock 24 mm pump and 20w50 gave higher oil pressure and temperature at 3000 rpm than the 26 mm pump and 15w40.
3 years later we compared the above 20w50 to the synthetic Mobil1 10w40 on the very same engine, and the difference was 7 hp increase at 5000 rpm. HOWEVER, with the Mobil and the stock 24 mm pump the engine struggelled to maintain decent oil pressure at idle. With the 26 mm pump it was ok. The owner wanted to use the mobil 10w40 synthetic, so the 26 mm pump stayed in. But over the first season it became evident that that oil was´nt so good at saoaking and releasing heat, so the next season the oil was swopped to another brand.

In 2011 we did another test. This time with a 130 hp 1914 type 1 in a ´69 beetle with a 3,88 transmission. This time we were after information on the oil´s ability to pick up and release temperature in a steady cruise 80 kmh, 3 x 0 to 180 kmh drags in a row and sustained 140 kmh over 25 km.  3 oils were tested. Castrol 20w50, Shell Rimula R4L and Brad Penn semisynthetic 15w40. Needless to say that the BP oil won in every single test, but it turned out that the Rimula R4L was significantly closer to the BP than we anticipated. The 20w50 was - naturally -  the poorest performing with the highest cruise temps and a cool down time over 100% longer than the synthetic. Now for good order I need to menthion that right around this time Castrol released the V67 10w40. I did not get around to test that one until a couple of years ago,. and I have to admit that it is not that bad. In general it performs well in an ACVW with decent soak and release times and good overall oil pressure.

Right around the same time the shop that I work with now and then serviced the 455 & 458 Scuderira´s that were used in the Europeian Ferrari challenge. These engines were supposed to run on 5w30 synthetic. But it soon turned out that the engines could not hold oil pressure at idle after a heat. The factory was approached, but there was not much help there, so we began to experiment with a couple of the cars without telling the teams what we did. After a few trial & errors we ended up using a special blend of 10w60 synthetic oil. It was not without a cost though, because this relatively little change cost over 10 hp at the starting line, but as the race proceeded these engines kept the power, so on the last laps they overtook and ended on the podium. Funny enough it is a variation of this blend that is used in the Ferrari endurance racing today.

These tests were performed up here in tempered Scandinavia. If the same tests were taken in Spain, Italy or some other place with significantly higher ambient temps you would have seen that the higher viscosity had performed a little bit better on the oil pressure tests. So Neils statement and experience is just as good as the next person who lives in hot´n humid Florida that has good results with a 20w50 blend. The combinations are almost endless. IN GENERAL I will say that with todays oil and oil quality you do not want to go up in oil viscosity compared to the recommended from Volkswagen back in the days, you would rather go 5 down.  around here I - still - recommend 15w40 for the average user, because this viscosity works both if youre driving to Nordkap and also if you drive to Spain.

So if one should make a short guideline to which viscosity to use it could sound something like this: Small oil pumps, use higher viscosity. Large pumps, use lower viscosity. Warm ambient, go 5 up, cold ambient, go 5 down.

Hope this helps.
T

[brewsy]

Snip..

So if one should make a short guideline to which viscosity to use it could sound something like this: Small oil pumps, use higher viscosity. Large pumps, use lower viscosity. Warm ambient, go 5 up, cold ambient, go 5 down.

Hope this helps.
T

Thats great info T.

Thanks very much!!

[Eddie DVK]

around here I - still - recommend 15w40 for the average user, because this viscosity works both if youre driving to Nordkap and also if you drive to Spain.

Hope this helps.
T

Torben very good info, but which brand do you prefer?

[Torben Alstrup]

I used to really like Brad Penn for high load engines, but they have changed the formula recently in conjunction with a change in ownership, which sadly did´nt make it better.
For regular street up to about 80 hp/l. I use regular Rimula R4L with a shot of Zddp.
Miller 15w50 Classic seems to work well too.
For really high load and also high rpm engines I have recently used Redline 15w50 High performance.
For all out drag race there really is no way around menthioning the LAT oil. Superior in flow resistance versus film strength. Don´t like it so much for street use.
For older straight oil cars/users Morris SAE 30 is awesome.

I have also played a little with Amsoil 15w50 Racing oil. Looks to work well with heat/cooling too, but nothing definitive.
Have a couple out with the newer very hyped Liqui Moly Classic 20w50. But, - I don´t know. No hard evidence yet,  but the "feeling" is not right. Maybe better for use south of the Alps.

In 2018 or early 2019, I forget, there was a comprehensive test of 20w50 oils for vintage cars performed by the german Auto Zeitung. While one can´t dispute the results delivered from the lab, the driving results are so far from real life that I´m thinking the article is paid for by a third party. For instance, they claim that the Porsche 20w/50 oil is equally interesting and usable for a 356, Opel Kadett or a VW type1/4. That is NOT true. Put this oil in a stock type 4 engine and drive down the road, you will see that the oil temps immediately increases with about 10 dsegrees over most other oils, which is a clear indication that the oil has too high resistance for the engines stock oil reduction system. Put the same oil in an average 356 engine and it works well, basicly due to the huge tolerances in such an engine, so that engine needs more oil and film to work well. Putting the same oil in an average Opel Kadett engine is just plain stupid as the only thing that will happen is that the friction loss in the engine increases. (UNLESS the engine has high mileage and thereby high tolerances. Then there can be an idea in doing it.)

[neil68]

Very good information!  20W50 is popular among Type 1/4 drivers in Canada and I used it myself 25 years ago.  However, I found that 5W40 runs much cooler on hot summer days, probably flowing properly through the oil cooler. We get cold/snow in April/May and September/October, so I like the 5W flow at engine start up.

[Udo]

One step better than V300 is this one.  I have the best looking bearings ever since I have it [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[samotorsport]

Thanks for sharing Udo , gonna try this on the rebuild engine !


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[richie]

I used to really like Brad Penn for high load engines, but they have changed the formula recently in conjunction with a change in ownership, which sadly did´nt make it better.
For regular street up to about 80 hp/l. I use regular Rimula R4L with a shot of Zddp.
Miller 15w50 Classic seems to work well too.
For really high load and also high rpm engines I have recently used Redline 15w50 High performance.
For all out drag race there really is no way around menthioning the LAT oil. Superior in flow resistance versus film strength. Don´t like it so much for street use.
For older straight oil cars/users Morris SAE 30 is awesome.

I have also played a little with Amsoil 15w50 Racing oil. Looks to work well with heat/cooling too, but nothing definitive.
Have a couple out with the newer very hyped Liqui Moly Classic 20w50. But, - I don´t know. No hard evidence yet,  but the "feeling" is not right. Maybe better for use south of the Alps.

In 2018 or early 2019, I forget, there was a comprehensive test of 20w50 oils for vintage cars performed by the german Auto Zeitung. While one can´t dispute the results delivered from the lab, the driving results are so far from real life that I´m thinking the article is paid for by a third party. For instance, they claim that the Porsche 20w/50 oil is equally interesting and usable for a 356, Opel Kadett or a VW type1/4. That is NOT true. Put this oil in a stock type 4 engine and drive down the road, you will see that the oil temps immediately increases with about 10 dsegrees over most other oils, which is a clear indication that the oil has too high resistance for the engines stock oil reduction system. Put the same oil in an average 356 engine and it works well, basicly due to the huge tolerances in such an engine, so that engine needs more oil and film to work well. Putting the same oil in an average Opel Kadett engine is just plain stupid as the only thing that will happen is that the friction loss in the engine increases. (UNLESS the engine has high mileage and thereby high tolerances. Then there can be an idea in doing it.)

Very informative as usual Torben Thank you. 


What is it about the LAT you don't like for road use? and does that apply to both the semi synthetic and full synthetic oils? We have had really good results with it in our turbo Drag week engines so interested to see your thoughts 

cheers Richie

[karmi]

I use Motul 300 V Competition 15W50 in a 1776 Type1 / 110PS in a buggy. Keeps the oil pressure very stable even when driving fully on the ring for 1 hour, the temperature is also ok.

Motul Germany wrote:
"The 300V oils are durable and designed for temperatures up to 150/160 ° C, even in peaks above (measured in the oil sump). Higher temperatures cause the oil to age faster, but have a significantly shorter effect on the engine life anyway and become In practice, the temperature level of 120-140 ° C for the ester-based 300V oils is still fully in the "feel-good range", which for other fully synthetic oils of conventional composition can already be described as borderline and with a noticeable loss of performance (loss of viscosity , Film tear) can go hand in hand. "

[Torben Alstrup]

Very informative as usual Torben Thank you.  


What is it about the LAT you don't like for road use? and does that apply to both the semi synthetic and full synthetic oils? We have had really good results with it in our turbo Drag week engines so interested to see your thoughts  

cheers Richie

Hello Ritchie
The oil I tried was the synthetic version. The main reaon I wasnt so impressed with it for street use was that it gave us low oil pressure unless we ran a 30 mm oil pump. Also the heat saturation and especially dissapation was not anything special. Especially not to warrant the price tag. But the reduced friction at rpm in the engine was very noticeable. If I was to dragrace It would be on top of my list.
I cannot say anything about the semi synthetic, because I don´t know it.

Udo.
Interesting. Are we talking street and/or race?

[Udo]

For street also if you want to spend the money.  They have another good oil for street - Synthese Technologie

[Torben Alstrup]

I received some technical data on the Motul 5w50 from my "deep throat" source. I see why you like it Udo. They use a different soap combo which I have not seen very often.  I will have to try it myself.

[reijo5]

Hi all

Anyone used penrite hpr15 ??
Synthetic, high zinc and not bad price ?

Cheers

[karmi]

There is a lot to read about oils here.....

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6882611

[samotorsport]

My local dealer just got a bunch of „Artoil 20w50 classic“ never heard about this before .
Coming from Belgium , googled a little and the adress is the same as Mobil Mitor Oils in Belgium .
Anybody ever heard of this brand ?

[samotorsport]

 This is the data sheet

[Tobias Bylund]

One step better than V300 is this one.  I have the best looking bearings ever since I have it [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Hi, researching oil for my new engine and wondering if this would be a good choice for a street car as well? The engine is dry sumped, autocraft 2 stage, with external bypass in the filter mount. My initial though was that this would be too thick at the high temp end, i was looking for oils in the 10w30 range, but when i stumbled across this thread i got interested in this oil as it is possible to find in europe, and it is reasonably priced.

Sidenote; how come some of the most recommended oils across the forums are unavailable in europe? Brad Penn, LAT, HPS, Valvoline VR1 10w30 etc. etc.? Are there different regulations regarding emissions etc. that says that they cannot be used in europe?

Regards
Tobias

[pupjoint]

One step better than V300 is this one.  I have the best looking bearings ever since I have it [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Hi, researching oil for my new engine and wondering if this would be a good choice for a street car as well? The engine is dry sumped, autocraft 2 stage, with external bypass in the filter mount. My initial though was that this would be too thick at the high temp end, i was looking for oils in the 10w30 range, but when i stumbled across this thread i got interested in this oil as it is possible to find in europe, and it is reasonably priced.

Sidenote; how come some of the most recommended oils across the forums are unavailable in europe? Brad Penn, LAT, HPS, Valvoline VR1 10w30 etc. etc.? Are there different regulations regarding emissions etc. that says that they cannot be used in europe?
Regards
Tobias

same here. those oils are also impossible to find in my part of the world - i been using 300v since day 1 for many years. also in my Subaru Turbo

[PPRMicke]

One step better than V300 is this one.  I have the best looking bearings ever since I have it [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Hi, researching oil for my new engine and wondering if this would be a good choice for a street car as well? The engine is dry sumped, autocraft 2 stage, with external bypass in the filter mount. My initial though was that this would be too thick at the high temp end, i was looking for oils in the 10w30 range, but when i stumbled across this thread i got interested in this oil as it is possible to find in europe, and it is reasonably priced.

Sidenote; how come some of the most recommended oils across the forums are unavailable in europe? Brad Penn, LAT, HPS, Valvoline VR1 10w30 etc. etc.? Are there different regulations regarding emissions etc. that says that they cannot be used in europe?

Regards
Tobias

Yes, there are different rules on what they do in the eu / us
But it is possible to get several of the oils in Sweden But you have to look for a while
 400ppm zinc in Eu 1100 in Us
Have you checked what persåker sells and Löven
/// Micke

[Tobias Bylund]

Hi Micke, yes i have checked Persåker and they have Driven (Joe Gibbs) in several viscosities, the only downside is price. It gets expensive with drysump and 8L volume 

Motul Sport Ester 5w50 can be purchased online 2x5L for around 90EUR, the same amount of Driven would cost 182EUR, so about twice as expensive, thats why i am wondering if the Motul oil would be suitable for a street car as well, the car will only ever be driven in the summer so i am not too worried about the 50 viscosity being too heavy, will have pressure bypass in the filter mount.

Regards
Tobias

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
While this may be most interesting for people in central Europe I can say that I have now had the chance to gather some more real life data on the Motul oil(s) And I can only second Udo´s statement. The internals look really good, also after some abuse and the heat soak/dissapation is also in the better end. That in spite of the fact that about they only factor it looses to say Amsoil on is film strength (in manual testing) Only goes to show that there is more than one factor that determines a good oil.
However, there is another player on the market which I kinda knew, but never really paid attention to. A couple of eastern Europeian colleagues pointed me in that direction. That is Ravenol. It turns out that that oil is right up there with Motul, Shell and Elf on modern oils and in some areas superceeds them. It also holds very good numbers on their vintage series too. I like it so much that I am about to swop out the Brad Penn in favour of the Ravenol for fast street cars and busses with heavy loads.