Autocrossing a Looker?

[andrewlandon67]

I was out with a couple of co-workers and a couple of my bosses students the other night choosing a new keg for the office and I found myself seated next to an autocrossing Porsche enthusiast. We got to talking and while I've never really put any thought into it, he may have convinced me to try and make it to an autocross event sometime this year. Of course, this is the Cal-Look Lounge, so I can't go on a rant about how terrible my lifted Subaru would be at autocross and call it a day. I've been talking a bit with a friend about it over the past couple of days and I think that if I were to put sway bars back on my '67, it'd probably do better than most people would think.

For now, the list is pretty small, and includes doing whatever joints need fixing, installing a 2" narrowed sway bar, moving the external oil cooler and re-installing the stock Z bar. The spring plate bushings on both sides are only a couple of years old, and the ride height is pretty solid in the rear, so I think I'll leave that as-is for now, but I'd like to lift the nose up a touch more than it is currently. The big things I'm worried about are my diff/transaxle not being able to handle the tight corners under pressure, and my engine oil-starving from the cornering. Does anyone have any experience with autocrossing these cars, especially hotrodded ones, and do you think I'd be able to get away with one day of it without any undue wear on my motor? For the record, my oiling system is a 30mm pump, full-flowed to an external filter, then a cooler, then back into the motor with no windage modifications draining into a 1 1/2 qt deep sump.

[Nico86]

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[Nico86]

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[Bryan67]

The Z bar is not a sway bar. It`s actually and overload helper spring. So I would leave it off, and put a sway bar or a camber compensator on the back to go with a front sway bar.

[andrewlandon67]

The Z bar is not a sway bar. It`s actually and overload helper spring. So I would leave it off, and put a sway bar or a camber compensator on the back to go with a front sway bar.

I've really been considering a camber compensator as well, though I've heard nobody makes one that fits with HD side covers. What other kind of sway bars do you know of for swingaxle rear ends?

[alex d]

I probably should have asked this before writing all of this, but maybe your definition of "autocross" is different in the US than it is over here ?

yes autocross in Europe and in the US are two completely different sports 

[Nico86]

I probably should have asked this before writing all of this, but maybe your definition of "autocross" is different in the US than it is over here ?

yes autocross in Europe and in the US are two completely different sports  

Yeah I saw that afterwards   Then there's not much more to do than what has always been done on VWs for a mild flat track use.

Putting a bigger front sway-bar and camber compensator is something yes, but the tires will have to fit them too. Installing big sway-bars with 135s front and 205s rear will be totally useless as this tire combination, as nice looking as it is, is actually giving quite awful results when you drive anything else than a straight line.

Shocks as well, KYBs, gas-shocks, and what's often put on lowered Beetles are terrible. Very narrowed front beams are quite awful as well.

And your ride height will have to be adjusted for all of this to be efficient. Forget the classic cal-look "rake", it's only good for the 1/4 mile. Looking at a lot of rally Beetles/Porsches you can see the back sits actually slightly lower than the front, that's what helps getting into tight cornering and keeping traction. Though I believe it's mostly true for 1302s/1303s, on a Beetle with a classic front beam raising the nose closer to the rear height will improve things already a lot.

I have never tried the rear-sway bar myself, but I've always heard bad things about it especially on a swing-axle car, and on a wet road. Camber compensator or axle belts seems to be the most efficient. The Z-bar, I have heard as many guys telling me to remove it than guys telling me to keep it.

The first thing I would do before buying any of this would be to put money into good wheels and tires in the right sizes. In my opinion it's the first thing that will really change the way a car handles. Then from this to try and test different things. Stock sway-bar vs. bigger sway-bar, then replace the shocks, then a camber compensator, Z-bar vs. no Z-bar, ride heights, etc... and see what feels good with your driving.

I also believe a Beetle with a few of these things tuned properly can do as good as a lot of more powerful cars. I don't know what's your engine but if you got a few more hp's than a stock VW engine it could be really fun !

[andrewlandon67]

I probably should have asked this before writing all of this, but maybe your definition of "autocross" is different in the US than it is over here ?

yes autocross in Europe and in the US are two completely different sports  

Yeah I saw that afterwards   Then there's not much more to do than what has always been done on VWs for a mild flat track use.

Putting a bigger front sway-bar and camber compensator is something yes, but the tires will have to fit them too. Installing big sway-bars with 135s front and 205s rear will be totally useless as this tire combination, as nice looking as it is, is actually giving quite awful results when you drive anything else than a straight line.

Shocks as well, KYBs, gas-shocks, and what's often put on lowered Beetles are terrible. Very narrowed front beams are quite awful as well.

And your ride height will have to be adjusted for all of this to be efficient. Forget the classic cal-look "rake", it's only good for the 1/4 mile. Looking at a lot of rally Beetles/Porsches you can see the back sits actually slightly lower than the front, that's what helps getting into tight cornering and keeping traction. Though I believe it's mostly true for 1302s/1303s, on a Beetle with a classic front beam raising the nose closer to the rear height will improve things already a lot.

I have never tried the rear-sway bar myself, but I've always heard bad things about it especially on a swing-axle car, and on a wet road. Camber compensator or axle belts seems to be the most efficient. The Z-bar, I have heard as many guys telling me to remove it than guys telling me to keep it.

The first thing I would do before buying any of this would be to put money into good wheels and tires in the right sizes. In my opinion it's the first thing that will really change the way a car handles. Then from this to try and test different things. Stock sway-bar vs. bigger sway-bar, then replace the shocks, then a camber compensator, Z-bar vs. no Z-bar, ride heights, etc... and see what feels good with your driving.

I also believe a Beetle with a few of these things tuned properly can do as good as a lot of more powerful cars. I don't know what's your engine but if you got a few more hp's than a stock VW engine it could be really fun !

Well, I'm still gonna keep the nose down a good bit, but my tires aren't anywhere near the extreme 135/205, they're 175 front 185 rear, and only a 2 inch narrowed beam to make up for the wide 5 discs pushing the wheels out. In my mind my 1914 should push my heap around a little course pretty well 

[Martin S.]

When my car was close to stock other than maybe a Bug spray, a Fourtuned header and a HD sway bar, my friend and I decided to make a skid pad at a local mall empty parking lot. We spray painted a big circle into the pavement and then took turns driving in circles, straddling the line as fast as we could. His stock early 240Z and my 68 bug. It was interesting to see how close the two cars were in max speed.
Until a cop showed up and said wtf.  

[Nico86]

175 and 185 sounds like a good setup   And a narrowed beam is fine as long as in the end you are close to stock track width. You can now play around with different settings and adjustements, and take a look at getting good shocks. If you ever get into racing some more take a look at tires with a lower profile.

[Nico86]

Oh and you might also want to take a look at the play in your steering box, the condition of your steering damper, wheel bearings and ball jonts, and... I don't know how you call that in english   ... that rubber pad that's bolted in between the steering box and the steering column.

[andrewlandon67]

Oh and you might also want to take a look at the play in your steering box, the condition of your steering damper, wheel bearings and ball jonts, and... I don't know how you call that in english   ... that rubber pad that's bolted in between the steering box and the steering column.

That's the steering coupler. My steering box is a little loose for sure, but I haven't heard anything good about replacements or rebuilds so I'm not sure what to do about that. I wouldn't mind getting some nicer shocks on my car at some point, but that's a ways away for now.

[Nico86]

Old german steering boxes always have a bit of play, as long it it's not too much and you can set it a bit you are good. I've also always heard it's better to keep a decent old one than buying the new ones they are currently selling.

[andrewlandon67]

Old german steering boxes always have a bit of play, as long it it's not too much and you can set it a bit you are good. I've also always heard it's better to keep a decent old one than buying the new ones they are currently selling.

That's about all I've heard. As far as the rest goes, the wheel bearings, ball joints, and tie rod ends are getting checked and replaced as-needed for sure.

[brewsy]

Andrew,
Take a look at this thread:
https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=127619

FJCamper seems to really know his shit.....
Its a very good read in my opinion...

BTW I subscribe to the 'if your car came with a Z bar then keep it' school of thought.
As someone earlier said its simply a spring assist ie it 'firms up' the suspension when the rear end goes down. The idea is that swing axles work best with softer spring rates but thats no good if tou have a car that takes passengers and luggage.
On Zbar cars the main torsion bar is supposed to be a touch thinner (lower spring rate) but the Zbar comes into play as a secondary torsion bar and stiffens it up to 'normal' levels.
If you want it to act like an antiroll bar then you need to change where it attaches so that both sides are either in front (or behind) the axles..

[andrewlandon67]

Andrew,
Take a look at this thread:
https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=127619

FJCamper seems to really know his shit.....
Its a very good read in my opinion...

BTW I subscribe to the 'if your car came with a Z bar then keep it' school of thought.
As someone earlier said its simply a spring assist ie it 'firms up' the suspension when the rear end goes down. The idea is that swing axles work best with softer spring rates but thats no good if tou have a car that takes passengers and luggage.
On Zbar cars the main torsion bar is supposed to be a touch thinner (lower spring rate) but the Zbar comes into play as a secondary torsion bar and stiffens it up to 'normal' levels.
If you want it to act like an antiroll bar then you need to change where it attaches so that both sides are either in front (or behind) the axles..

The Z bar definitely does make a difference, my car's rear definitely feels a little more loose without it, but I feel like for performance driving the camber compensator might do a better job of regulating how much the wheels tuck in during hard cornering, as opposed to just adding more "spring" like a Z bar. I also need to consider that I'm using the stock '67 torsion bars with '66 and earlier length axles (since I can't find '67 length HD axles for under $300), and I'm not sure what the effect would be with a Z bar on short axles.

[volkskris]

A Z-bar and a camber compensator do the same job in a different way.
The Z-bar needs to have it's links shortened to work instantly.

[Bryan67]

The Z bar is not a sway bar. It`s actually and overload helper spring. So I would leave it off, and put a sway bar or a camber compensator on the back to go with a front sway bar.

I've really been considering a camber compensator as well, though I've heard nobody makes one that fits with HD side covers. What other kind of sway bars do you know of for swingaxle rear ends?

My old green 64 had Koni shocks and front and rear Addco? sway bars. I never autocrossed it, but it handle freeway on ramps way better then any other Bug I`ve owned.