building 'my ulitmate' street motor

[Glauco]

Ok, I know this has been discussed a few times before, but still I'm looking the build the best bang for my buck.
not that the engine itself will be built any time soon, but I like to be prepared so I know what to look for.
the goal is to build a true street engine for the Karmann, something to give me the Porsche driving feeling we all love
full weight, koni adjustable shocks, IRS suspension with the long AT transmission from a superbeetle, with super diff. HD anti-rollbars front and rear. traction bar with rubber support, mid trans mount with rubbers, HD rubber mountings, ...

things I have for my engine:

autoline case
CW 78mm crank (not sure what brand, should check)
Engle FK-8
scat 1.4 rockers (give real 1.4 lift)
empi GTV-2 stage 1 wedgeport heads. 40*35
1 1/2 and 1 5/8 merged header (with S&S dqp)
94mm barels and pistons, but for a 1914..
scat 5.4 rods

things I want:

light lifters (thorsten pieper or udo becker)
dual tapered pushrods
IDA's

heads need new valves (and seats) so was thinking to get the snakeskins or something like that.

but here are my questions:

would I benefit from going bigger valves? 42*37.5 or so?

can I use the shorter barrels and 'A' pistons? or do I need B's?

is a 2165 to big or to small for a karmann? is there a better combination?

will the FK8 be ok on the street in a Karmann with long transmission? or are there better ones out there? 86B should be the same but more quit..?

should I change the gearing? I would love a 5 speed, but that's not an option I'm afraid...

probably got some more questions, but this is it for now...

thank you!
glauco

[Karlos99]

I had an FK8 in the 2110 in my bus with a freeway flyer and it drove great

[Glauco]

I had an FK8 in the 2110 in my bus with a freeway flyer and it drove great

that's the thought as well, buidling it up with a freeway flyer style gearbox. or maybe just a long first gear and a shorter 2nd and 3th and stock long 4th..

[andrewlandon67]

I actually have those heads and an FK8 in my 1914, with more displacement, it'll likely be a little more tame with a smoother powerband, but still have plenty of grunt.

[Glauco]

I actually have those heads and an FK8 in my 1914, with more displacement, it'll likely be a little more tame with a smoother powerband, but still have plenty of grunt.

Perhaps, but I hope it will have enough punch for a enjoyable ride.
If it's not enough I can always try to source some 1.5 rockers if that helps..

[andrewlandon67]

I actually have those heads and an FK8 in my 1914, with more displacement, it'll likely be a little more tame with a smoother powerband, but still have plenty of grunt.

Perhaps, but I hope it will have enough punch for a enjoyable ride.
If it's not enough I can always try to source some 1.5 rockers if that helps..

Actually, come to think of it, this sounds exactly like a lower-compression version of the 2165 in my friend Sam's '63. It's pretty mild as far as high-compression motors go, with a fairly linear powerband and enough low-end to keep it moving around town. I'm not sure about the pistons though, you might need to move up to the B style pistons for that much stroke.

[Glauco]

Actually, come to think of it, this sounds exactly like a lower-compression version of the 2165 in my friend Sam's '63. It's pretty mild as far as high-compression motors go, with a fairly linear powerband and enough low-end to keep it moving around town. I'm not sure about the pistons though, you might need to move up to the B style pistons for that much stroke.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info! I'm still not sure of the fk8, but it's what I have, might change my mind once the motor gets built..
I can say the same about the heads, but that's another story 

[nicolas]

keep the fk8 for sure!

the 40 valved heads will work and will be great. they will be limited after a while, if they don't flow enough, but you know my car and engine and it has 40's (with a FK44), my 2276 has an FK8 and 42x37. so it both can work.
one thing I would get is 94 B's. they are lighter and you are looking at that because you are looking at lighter lifters. by doing so your pushrods get shorter and lighter and even be 'stronger'. some machining is required, but not that much (I have done it).

[Glauco]

keep the fk8 for sure!

the 40 valved heads will work and will be great. they will be limited after a while, if they don't flow enough, but you know my car and engine and it has 40's (with a FK44), my 2276 has an FK8 and 42x37. so it both can work.
one thing I would get is 94 B's. they are lighter and you are looking at that because you are looking at lighter lifters. by doing so your pushrods get shorter and lighter and even be 'stronger'. some machining is required, but not that much (I have done it).

Hey Nicholas, good to know that you know what machining it takes, if nothing changes you'll be building it 

[PPRMicke]

Why AA pistons  (kina crap)
If you want quality Mahle B
/// Micke

[nicolas]

keep the fk8 for sure!

the 40 valved heads will work and will be great. they will be limited after a while, if they don't flow enough, but you know my car and engine and it has 40's (with a FK44), my 2276 has an FK8 and 42x37. so it both can work.
one thing I would get is 94 B's. they are lighter and you are looking at that because you are looking at lighter lifters. by doing so your pushrods get shorter and lighter and even be 'stronger'. some machining is required, but not that much (I have done it).

Hey Nicholas, good to know that you know what machining it takes, if nothing changes you'll be building it 

jippie!

[Glauco]

Why AA pistons  (kina crap)
If you want quality Mahle B
/// Micke

Nobody said AA, they don't seem to be that good indeed, definitely going for mahles or even wiseco if I can find them in the budget..

[PPRMicke]

Life of pistons is not a forged A good choice
It is a competition product with short life   (Wiseco/J&M / Cp/ )

[Glauco]

Life of pistons is not a forged A good choice
It is a competition product with short life   (Wiseco/J&M / Cp/ )

So mahle would be the best choice for a street only engine?

[PPRMicke]

YES
If you want a forged piston that is like a Mahle
So you have to order them with lots of extra stuff
That hardened ringland
Hardened sides
That the piston bolt is offset from the center
Surface coating on the piston so it runs easily
If you want the life land as a Mahle
/// Micke

[Glauco]

YES
If you want a forged piston that is like a Mahle
So you have to order them with lots of extra stuff
That hardened ringland
Hardened sides
That the piston bolt is offset from the center
Surface coating on the piston so it runs easily
If you want the life land as a Mahle
/// Micke

Mahle it will be than,  thank you for the info!

Glauco

[Martin S.]

Why AA pistons  (kina crap)
If you want quality Mahle B
/// Micke

Just curious can you elaborate on AA piston experiences? I have the cheap non-forged 94 slipper skirts in my engine which makes me concerned 

[PPRMicke]

Why AA pistons  (kina crap)
If you want quality Mahle B
/// Micke

Just curious can you elaborate on AA piston experiences? I have the cheap non-forged 94 slipper skirts in my engine which makes me concerned 

NA or turbo
I hope you know there is a difference on a Na and turbo piston
At a Swedish forum Boxerwille there is a thread about AA
I usually say this. You get what you pay for
If you want to buy china copies, you have to count on certain things
/// Micke

[Glauco]

So I sold the A' pistons and cylinders and I'm now looking for a new set with B's.
But will the fk8 benefit more from thick wall 92's?
And the rest of the engine as well..

[Martin S.]

Why AA pistons  (kina crap)
If you want quality Mahle B
/// Micke

Just curious can you elaborate on AA piston experiences? I have the cheap non-forged 94 slipper skirts in my engine which makes me concerned 

NA or turbo
I hope you know there is a difference on a Na and turbo piston
At a Swedish forum Boxerwille there is a thread about AA
I usually say this. You get what you pay for
If you want to buy china copies, you have to count on certain things
/// Micke

Thanks for the reply. No I don’t know all the details between NA and turbo other than what I read here.
At the time I was going on the advice of the builder and he was clear that the slipper skirt design is what was important and not country of origin. Yes the mahles are available and I would buy them normally but they are the old conventional design with not as much support under the crown. I was hoping to get the AA forged but they were not available at the time so I went with the regular AAs.

[nicolas]

But will the fk8 benefit more from thick wall 92's?
And the rest of the engine as well..

making the engine smaller isn't going to 'solve' anything. go for 94's they have been used in engines that have done miles. that is not the issue. don't be afraid of a milder cam in a big engine. if you can find the article about Roger Crawfords black 67 he had over 200 hp with an fk8... Dave C had an fk8 and ran great numbers. the cam is not too small. it actually will give you an engine you can drive more and race as well. it won't have every last HP in the top end, that is true, but it will have a useable power band for a streetcar.

I am a fan of the FK8, I would use it, but that said, different options can be made to work.

[Glauco]

But will the fk8 benefit more from thick wall 92's?
And the rest of the engine as well..

making the engine smaller isn't going to 'solve' anything. go for 94's they have been used in engines that have done miles. that is not the issue. don't be afraid of a milder cam in a big engine. if you can find the article about Roger Crawfords black 67 he had over 200 hp with an fk8... Dave C had an fk8 and ran great numbers. the cam is not too small. it actually will give you an engine you can drive more and race as well. it won't have every last HP in the top end, that is true, but it will have a useable power band for a streetcar.

I am a fan of the FK8, I would use it, but that said, different options can be made to work.

I'll stick with the fk-8, because that's what I have.
There might be some special part(s) coming up tomorrow if the Ebay auction ends in my favor. Might change things a little bit, but more info on that later...

[Garrick Clark]

My AA piston kit came new from factory with no ring gap. None. Check the gaps

[Glauco]

so to get back on the topic, this engine is keeping me up at night. luckily in a good way all the options and "have been done before with good results" makes me loos track of the trees in the forest.
So I sold the 1914 kit and am now in the hunt for (preferably mahle) "B" p&c. and will cast pistons be enough? I found some info on the hypereutectic pistons, but that's more for mileage than for power i assume?

again, I don't need the last pony in the stable, but I still want some good power..

what kind of connecting rods would you guys suggest? and what length? I was thinking if I switch to chevy journal I could gain a little stroke without to much clearance issues..
but is that a good Idea?
and what length? I know this is a discussion on its own, but do I need the long rods? I tend to prefer shorter rods, just to keep the power down low (without having it drive like a diesel)
will 5.4 be 'short' enough or can (should) I go shorter? stock length or even shorter?

I would also like to get my heads ported for some more flow, might have to contact a shop or 2..

[Glauco]

My AA piston kit came new from factory with no ring gap. None. Check the gaps

yeah, some people seem to like AA's over mahle, but not sure if it is realy true..

[Lukej]

Just for a bit of balance.
My 94mm AA slippers are dished for 5cc and surviving 10.2:1 and 7500rpm
Only issues so far are when they ate a valve guide. They've gone again though