fitting an EFI system on my 2276

[nicolas]

I have a 2276 and want to fit a EFI system.

here are some specs and questions

specs:

82x94 cc
FK8 1.4 scat rockers
Steve Tims stage 2 heads 42x37.5 heads
9 CR
scat sump, external cooler, full flow.

has/ had MSD ignition and 48 Dellorto carbs

EFI system so far:

fuel pump and fuel regulator. hard line through the tunnel also a return line. fuel tank tapped for a return inlet. will be done with AN fittings front to back. AN8 to the regulator and rails, AN 6 for the return.
Kdata ECU
IDF style trottle bodies, csp linkage. or taco style.

what I don't know:

what injectors do I need? what style... I have no clue on this.
a wiring harness. I want to fit it with a crank trigger ignition. the pulley is cut to do that. I machined the teeth for that. I may have a pickup for it. I will digg it out. what about ignition? I am thinking about a modern coil pack...
what do I need? where do I look to start?

I will be fitting the parts I have on the engine and see that it all fits. then fit the engine and do the fuel first. after that I need to do the wiring and all the rest.

please shime in and help out I am really looking for guidance in this. thank you.

[PPRMicke]

We start with injectors
It all depends on how much power the outlet should have
A calculation example 420 cc x 4 (pcs) x 0.8 (burn time in %) divided in 5.6 (fuel factor in type Lambda value ) (420x4(1680) x 0.8(1344) divided in 5.6 = 240 hp as a maximum of 80%
It is an advantage to use high impedance fuel injectors
Such require less Ampere (95% of today's car manufacturers use such In the 80s it was high ohm that you had to have a built-in resistor for such to work well
Fuel pump can be good if it can handle E85 for the mixing of ethanol in today's fuel in Eu
The same with BTR should be approved for E85 so you don't have problems
You forgot that you need a fuel filter
You usually have a coarse filter before the pump, then a fine filter before the Btr
60M before pump 10M after pump
Then what you choose for throttle body is a personal what you like
You can check for Faj's Trottel body
adds a link to a Swedish company that sells     https://shop.klracing.se/sv/artiklar/motor-_-tuning/branslesystem/spjallhus-3/index.html
PS
I cannot recommend MS
We call them mega problems
/// Micke

[mikko k]

So,

Do you already have throttle bodys or not? If not, here is some good ones:

https://www.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-and-components/throttle-bodies/twin-bodies-idf-style/tbody-pair-idf-40-50mm-tfp40-50

Ofcourse, there are others available.

To calculate the size of injectors, here it is easy to do: https://www.finjector.com/eng/injectormatic

The style, length, etc. of injectors depends on where are they located. If your injectors are in throttle bodys, you will need the style that will fit in to bodys.
If your injectors are in intake manifolds, you have a lot of choices. I prefer injectors in bodys.

About ECU, get one that can also handle the ignition. Separate systems does not help you, on the contrary. And get wiring hardness that fits to ecu.

Does this help you a bit, I don’t know…

[PPRMicke]

Takes a little about ecu
There is a lot to choose from today which is good
There are also a lot of systems that are not that good
As a buyer, you should look around to see if what you intend to use is user-friendly in the layout, then I usually say that there should be wideband lambda
Then it is good if you have a company in your vicinity that works with the system so that you can get help
If you want to keep the distributor and MSD, smart systems usually solve this. Just connect a cable (white cable) into the MSD box, then you control the box through the EFI
If I were you, I would start searching on You Tube because you have information there that you can learn a lot from efi that way
Two efi's that are very user friendly and easy to learn Fueltech and Maxxecu
Fueltech Ft450 and maxxecu sportsman are very reasonable in price
/// Micke

[mymedusa]

MaxxECU Mini should do the Job. In such an engine, it can do more than you need. And is currently also very cheap in compare to Others.

Whishes chris

[PPRMicke]

MaxxECU Mini should do the Job. In such an engine, it can do more than you need. And is currently also very cheap in compare to Others.

Whishes chris

Mini has no wideband lambda unfortunately The smart one chooses with wide band lambda because then it is easier to map efi
/// M

[mymedusa]

Naaaa, it just has no internal Driver so you add one stand alone and have also a permanent dash gauge to look at , Lambda is Just a simple Volt Signal the ecu is working with. If internal or external doesn't matter. I am using emu black that has internal Driver but i do not use the Internat and doing the external way. In the old days when efi was super expensive alot of people did megasquirt AS Mentor and we had to solder our own efi stuff like lego. Sure one driver is faster than the other but also 4.9 is faster than 4.2 but moste people use 4.2 because it Last longer Special with Lauch Control, anti lag. I would allways use a Dash Instrument to Look at thats next to oil pressure the fastest ways to see if all is fine. So a stand alone system is just one wire that goes on a ecu Pin and is very easy to Install too.

[mikko k]

Smart people does not always buy cheapest parts available…

[PPRMicke]

There we have different views on Wideband lambda control
The ones that are built in, you use cambus and then are so fast that you can see which cylinder fires
How was it with 4.9 versus 4.2 4.9 is sensitive to too much unburnt fuel and stops measuring Special with Lauch Control
4.2 can measure to 1000hz with all the way down to AFR 6.6 with the right things (fueltech nano/nano pro) also in Maxxecu which is 500hz with 4.2
Those who do not compete usually do not need faster
With that kind of control, it's almost self-mapping
 
If you want an even faster probe, you can choose the NTK lab sensor, but then it requires fast controls like the Nano pro Fast also has a good fast control

If you want to drive street & strip, it can be good to have a log system that is built into the program so you can see how the hit is in the fuel mixture on the lambda
One of the most important things I think today
We here in Sweden who use EFI (fueltech) help each other by seeing things in the log, how the hit has been and what can be improved
If someone was at SCC, there was a bunch of dorks sitting over a computer checking the log
It went fast for Johan F when we controlled the boost so it was 8.46
/// Micke

[mymedusa]

I am totally in your Side micke, but honestly there is a Guy who wants efi on a N/A aircooled engine. For that kinda use the mexxECU Mini ist way more than he need and less than half the price. No need of boost controlling by a Team, No nitrose, it will basically be a Alpha N tune with Lambda correction. If the tune is good you will not make more HP with the one or the other setup. And If so, than we are talking in HP in 0,xx. I am a Fan of fuel-tech and maxxECU premium... But there is no reason to do that Here.

Wishes
Chris

[nicolas]

hello,

thanks for the replies. I think I could calculate the injector size and the fuel pressure. I got the link from a friend and it said to use 46psi and a 300cc injector. I calculated it with a 180hp output that seems generous for now, but could be achievable if the engine really performs good.

I do have throttle bodies and they are some kind of Fajs but with a different mid section. in fact the ones I have are more separate bodies that are linked with a screw. but they seem to be ok and in IDF pattern which is what I have now.

the ecu is a Kdata. I have bought a kit (years ago with one and never used it) but I like to do so in the future , hence the choice for the same ecu and learn from what I have.

good point on the filter. I have one now and I am looking up which one it is to order the other. I am also ordering the fittings to make the fuel lines so that is my priority now. all is good for ethanol (pump, filter, regulator.) that seems to be a good thing.


so I think I need to focus a bit more on a set of injectors and it seems that the TPS is not included, but looks very similar to the ones in the link form PPRMike.


I must say I am glad I posted it, but be patient with me, this is new and hocus pokus to me. thanks.

[mikko k]

Fuel pressure should be always 3bar (=45psi) minimum. Fuel atomisize better.

300cc injectors are a bit small. You might run out of those. Better aim to 350-400cc. Little bigger is not so bad as too small. I have 700cc injectors for 300hp NA engine and there is no any issues.

[PPRMicke]

Hello
You can work with the fuel pressure thing
46 psi I would try instead to run at 50 psi because we usually use that on Na which gives a lot of effect, even 60psi is quite common in the Na world (often there is a flow chart on injectors 43.5/50/60 psi)
A good thing to think about is the alcohol content in today's gasoline
PTFE hoses can be a good choice
/// Micke

[nicolas]

Hello
You can work with the fuel pressure thing
46 psi I would try instead to run at 50 psi because we usually use that on Na which gives a lot of effect, even 60psi is quite common in the Na world (often there is a flow chart on injectors 43.5/50/60 psi)
A good thing to think about is the alcohol content in today's gasoline
PTFE hoses can be a good choice
/// Micke

thank you! you read my mind. I was looking at fittings and so and I came up with the question to either use ptfe hoses and fittings or rubber. PTFE as you suggest.

the pressure was given from a calculator from fuelinjectorclinic.com not sure if that is gospel. but I think it checks with what I can find elsewhere... and realistically speaking a 300cc injector is that something that has come up in the region of what I have entered as data. I don't claim to have 250hp...

[PPRMicke]

Calculating injectors can be tricky. Usually I say it's better to have some excess capacity on the injector
An injector has a better life at 70% opening time than 90-95%, which often causes the injector to fail or it gets stuck in the open position
There is a bosch green injector that gives 420cc @3bar (240hp on 80%) (465cc@3.8 bar (265hp)
If you were to run them at 60%, they will give fuel to 180 hp
These injectors work very well to have 2.8 bar pressure f
This injector is very good for the low speed characteristics
It brought to the volvo S60 R awd It is very good atomization of the fuel This is a very good choice
The number of these is 0280 155 968. I have sample injectors from this car project, which became 0280 155 968 in the production cars
There is a big PS There are lots of Chinese copies of them that don't work as intended
/// Micke

[nicolas]

thank you (again) I will keep asking questions and picking up info.

but I looked these up and from the pictures these have no 'nose'. I think I have a cm at least from the seat of the o-ring to the inside of the throttle body. is this a problem? I see injectors spraying all kind of directions, some even can be programmed to aim at one or another direction... if these are fine and not just making a big drip. I can order them. I found Bosch motorsport ones , but they are 50% more expensive and smaller... I would like to try these.

I did make a little progress. I ordered a TP sensor and it turned out good, but it sat wrong and couldn't fully open. so a little son vs dad contest as in old vs new technology was on. he tried to print a offset shim to rotate the sensor, I made one on the lathe. we had a draw  no I won.  his wasn't the best filament and I could adjust the measurement to fit the sensor when I was making it. we had fun.  so now the sensor fits better.

stupid question, but I do need only one right? no use in confusing the ecu with two, right? just make sure to synchronise the two sides?

no progress on buying the fuel lines as I need a million fittings it seems... still on that.

[PPRMicke]

When you have two throttle bodies
This is how you do double carburettors sync both so the butterfly is the same
Then it is good to take out the vacuum signal from both sides
Fuel yes it takes a few meters of hose One way is to do this
Main hose then a Y that goes to each side of the throttle body
then back to the fuel regulator (in on both sides) then back to the tank
/// Micke

[nicolas]

OK. I understand what to do with the TB. I didn't think (again) of the vacuum signal... and sure not taking it from two sides...  but that can be machined or fitted.

I was thinking of doing it a different way... fuel pump, than the regulator with a return line on the regulator, than the outlet from the regulator (which should have the pressure of the regulator) to both TBs (either 1 and than the other, or a Y to both)

thanks.

[PPRMicke]

You can do it in different ways, but only the regulator sits after the TB because the injectors must have the right pressure
you can also do it this way pump into R TB then through L TB then into the regulator return to tank

[nicolas]

You can do it in different ways, but only the regulator sits after the TB because the injectors must have the right pressure
you can also do it this way pump into R TB then through L TB then into the regulator return to tank

OK. so not like a 'carburator setup' where it is pump, regulator, carb... got it.
I did order the Bosch injectors. I am fitting the TB on manifolds and the Udo Becker manifolds seem to be a very good fit. so I will match port these to the heads and use them.