Gearbox for PROJECT 66 - a Berg5 maybe ???

[Lee.C]

 I have been thinking about a Berg5 for a while now and I was wondering what you guys thought of my Ratio ideas 

4.12 r/p 4.11 1st 2.47 2nd 1.58 3rd 1.31 4th and a 0.89 5th

Let me know what you think guys 

Also what type of mount do you recomend for HARD street use 

[Frank LUX]

I have been thinking about a Berg5 for a while now and I was wondering what you guys thought of my Ratio ideas 

4.12 r/p 4.11 1st 2.47 2nd 1.58 3rd 1.31 4th and a 0.89 5th

Let me know what you think guys 

Also what type of mount do you recomend for HARD street use 

I would use a 3.88 R&P...

Frank

[Lee.C]

ok but you will have to forgive my lack of knowlage 

How will this effect the ratio's/ top end/ acceleration etc etc

[Frank LUX]

ok but you will have to forgive my lack of knowlage 

How will this effect the ratio's/ top end/ acceleration etc etc

It will make the ratios a little longer but the onces you listed are short enough to handle that 3.88 R&P...

But it will all depend on your Motor...how Big cc and what HP...

Frank

[63 ripper]

1.31 to 0.89 would be a drop in the rpm range (depending on cam choice)
it all depends on engine components as to where in the rev range it makes power
get yours self hot vws october 2000-jan 2001 as they build and mount a 5 speed. useful articles

[Lee.C]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

[speedwell]

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

cool lee 

[63 ripper]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

do what some of the OFF guys do,have close 1-3 then a longer fourth. you need low down torque to pull a 5th gear. a peaky motor that makes power up high then drops right off when you shift into 5th isn't the best combo.

[Lee.C]

yeah I understand that it will drop off in 5th but as I say it is purly for motor way cruzing - so ratio's wuold you recomend for a 4 speed box then just out of interest 

[63 ripper]

if it was me,with that motor i would stick with an aftermarket 4.12 r+p the car will feel much quicker off the mark and they can handle a LOT more than 135 hp. if you want to get silly and run slicks then maybe go to a 3.88,what you gain in the 60ft you might loose in the fact your car is full weight.
only your engine/box builder/supplier can really recommend what ratios as he will have all the figures and can talk to you about what you want the car to do/where you live/roads etc...best bet it to ride in as many different boxed cars as possible. some peoples idea of hell is a 1.21 fourth but then others relish banging through the gears and don't mind 55 mph cruising

[Diederick/DVK]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

you what mate?
change of mind?
 
 

[Lee.C]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

you what mate?
change of mind?
 
 

No changes of mind dude - just toying with a few ideas  its always gonna have a 1679cc mouse motor though 

[richie]

I have been thinking about a Berg5 for a while now and I was wondering what you guys thought of my Ratio ideas 

4.12 r/p 4.11 1st 2.47 2nd 1.58 3rd 1.31 4th and a 0.89 5th

Let me know what you think guys 

Also what type of mount do you recomend for HARD street use 

Too short,those gears with a 3.88 or make the 1/4 a litle taller with the 4.12
If you have a play here
http://www.johnmaherracing.co.uk/gearcalc.htm

will give you a good idea of what you will end up with,I used 25.5 inch tyre as a guess with what you might end up with

cheers richie,uk

[richie]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

do what some of the OFF guys do,have close 1-3 then a longer fourth. .

?  What???

cheers richie,uk

[Lee.C]

Cool thanks again for the tips dude - I must admit those ratios were given to me as a very rough guide and I just added a 0.89 on top for 5th

I have noticed that people tend to use a taller 1st and 4th - I will have a play on JMR site and see what I come up with 

Thanks again dude 

[63 ripper]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

do what some of the OFF guys do,have close 1-3 then a longer fourth. .

?  What???

cheers richie,uk

from Martin...^

i'd be interested to hear what some of the smaller cc street driving outlaw guys have in the way of ratios.
i've tried a 4.12 with a 1.12
               4.12 with a 1.14
freeway flyers 4.12 with an 0.89
                     3.88 with an 0.82   
the 5 speed has 3.88 r&p, w/4.25, 2.54, 1.48, 1.12, and .89 5th

[richie]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

do what some of the OFF guys do,have close 1-3 then a longer fourth. .

?  What???

cheers richie,uk

from Martin

about as reliable as the weather man

cheers richie,uk

[63 ripper]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

do what some of the OFF guys do,have close 1-3 then a longer fourth. .

?  What???

cheers richie,uk

from Martin

about as reliable as the weather man

cheers richie,uk

dis-information 

[ESH]

...dis-information...

You already have unparalleled access to plenty of that. 

[Zach Gomulka]

This Box is going to be for my 1679cc mouse motor - it will be Reving pretty high 7500  and hopefully should be making around 135bhp maybe more  oh yeah and the cam will either be a FK10 or FK87.

My main aim is to run 13's but still have a nice 5th gear for cruzin to bug In 

High revver, not much in the torque department, so you are best to keep the ratios on the shorter side. What size tires? What is your goal on quarter mile e.t? Once you have a goal set for e.t. you can appoximate what speed you will be crossing the line at. For optimal performance you want to be crossing the finish line at your shift rpm, in this case 7500rpm. With that information you can figure out what your 4th gear will need to be. I would first go for a 3.88 r+p (stronger), and then a 4.11 first gear to get off the line. Once you know your 4th gear, place 2nd and 3rd between them so that each gear change has less rpm drop than the last change. Finally 5th... not too tall because the you dont want to be down shifting when going up hills, and you also dont want it spread too far from 4th gear or else you will be taking hills at 45mph

What size tires?
What is your e.t. goal?

[Zach Gomulka]

Ok, duh I see that you want to run 13's. A 13 second quarter is in the range of 90-100mph for a VW. Go with 100mph as its better to have too much gear rather than not enough. It also leaves room for engine improvement 100mph at 7500 rpm with a 3.88 r+p with a 26" tire.... you would need a 1.49 4th gear. They make a 1.48, and thats pretty close So... 2nd and 3rd now....


Ok Ive been doing the math and it seems like a 3.88 just wont work well in this application. Step over to the 4.12 and it works out much better. Ive got to stop for now because all this math isnt getting along with the Jack Daniels I had last night

[Lee.C]

WOW Thankyou dude - Thats EXACTLY the info I have been looking for 

As far as RPM go I was only giving a rough guide  but it should rev to something close to that maybe more 

if you could get round to working out 2nd and 3rd for me that would be AWSOME dude

This is what we have so far then:

4.12 r/p 4.11 1st ? 2nd ? 3rd 1.48 4th and a 0.89 5th 

[John Maher]

Get the torque and power curves for the engine. Then you'll be in a position to choose the ratios that'll keep the engine in the rpm range that delivers best acceleration over the 1/4. Taking a guess at the gear ratios before you build the engine can work OK but only if you're good at guesstimating engine performance and that's not so easy with this type of combination.

You better have some SERIOUS cylinder heads on there to make it even worthwhile going as high as 7500rpm. Not saying it can't be done but you've got to be realistic. Zinging it to 7500 if peak power occurs at 6000 is hard on parts and will probably slow you down.

I have a VHS tape somewhere with footage of the Engine Machine Service built 1679cc engine from the 'Madness' car of the late '70s/early '80s. It made 204bhp on the dyno and ran a best of 11.3     That engine saw a lot more rpm than you're talking about and had some head mods not many people have the skills to carry out. Fair to say it wasn't a street car though.

The 130bhp 1679 IDA motor I built (seems like a long time ago) would have made as much peak power with 44IDFs and maybe even 40s. But it wouldn't have looked as cool   

IDAs will only be of benefit if anything smaller would be restrictive.

Big hp from a little n/a engine comes down to simple physics: look at what it takes to pump more air through the motor  ie. heads, cam, induction, exhaust. The right mods for the 1/4 will bump up peak power rpm and you'll need super close ratios. Downside - it'll be a pain to drive on the street.

There's a reason for the old saying: "There's no replacement for displacement"        (Not meant to be taken in a discouraging way)

[benssp]

There's a reason for the old saying: "There's no replacement for displacement"   

Welcome to the lounge John, nice to see one of your 'brief' replies!

That saying(and hanging out with Bernie) is why i'm going for a 2387cc street car now and not the 1776cc racecar I intended to build!

[Lee.C]

"Get the torque and power curves for the engine. Then you'll be in a position to choose the ratios"

VERY VERY GOOD POINT - thnaks John and welcome to the lounge 

And don't worry about the cylinder heads TRUST ME I have that one covered 

I have been thinking though after all these posts I might just build a "PROPER 4 speed" and save the 5 speed for the NEXT engine - which I'm keeping secret for now 

[Fastbrit]

I have been thinking though after all these posts I might just build a "PROPER 4 speed" and save the 5 speed for the NEXT engine - which I'm keeping secret for now 

Oh, so you don't want me tell them about the turbo Subaru WRX motor, then?

[Lee.C]

I have been thinking though after all these posts I might just build a "PROPER 4 speed" and save the 5 speed for the NEXT engine - which I'm keeping secret for now 

Oh, so you don't want me tell them about the turbo Subaru WRX motor, then?

SHHHHHH I told you not to tell them 

 

[adrian]

Ive been running a 5 speed, 4.37 r and p - 3.78, 2.35, 1.58, 1.21, .82 . About 100 mph @ 7000 through the traps on 205/70 's. Pushed along by a not too highly strung 2276. The box was built with a much smaller engine in mind, originally an okrasa I believe. Been thinking about selling it to... 

[Lee.C]

No offence ment dude but with 1 post ( in the "For Sale!" section ) you might want to read this thread 

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3263.0.html

BUT if you are serious then my email address is listed on here so drop me a line 

[drgouk]

Ive been running a 5 speed, 4.37 r and p - 3.78, 2.35, 1.58, 1.21, .82 . About 100 mph @ 7000 through the traps on 205/70 's. Pushed along by a not too highly strung 2276. The box was built with a much smaller engine in mind, originally an okrasa I believe. Been thinking about selling it to... 

It was bulit with a 78x90.5 engine with low compression in mind.