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Author Topic: Small powerhouses and old school  (Read 631731 times)
Martin Greaves
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10.88@128.58


« Reply #750 on: December 24, 2014, 16:22:00 pm »

Pete what fuel you using.
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Hahaha your killing me.........
Peter Shattock
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« Reply #751 on: December 24, 2014, 17:05:33 pm »

Hi Martin,

Shell V power for the street, but Sunoco 260GT Plus for racing.

Peter
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The fastest beetle in the village
andy198712
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Posts: 1062



« Reply #752 on: December 24, 2014, 18:39:04 pm »

Hi Nicholas, as you suggest much tea will need to be consumed before this car can turn a wheel in anger next year!

Dive!dive!, always happy to see another 1776cc being tinkered with good luck with the mapping I've had my first lessons now and clearly have a lot to learn!

Andy, we are certainly trying to maximise things now and that was what this engine project and all the car modifications over the last couple of years have been all about. 2015 will be the first year when it is all in the car so as I said before track time is what is needed now to get it all sorted out and see if we can get it to all work together.

The main focus has been on the valve train because this is the first problem we had to solve, but you are right to question the bearings crank and case as they are clearly all potential problem areas. This is part of the reason for the steel plates on the case to help with rigidity and reduce the flex. The crank is a billet EN30B number which is much lighter than some of the larger cranks which are common to keep the loads down. It also has a light piston, pin, ring pack and rods with a view to keeping the loads on the crank, bearings and case to what we believe are acceptable levels. If you look back at the calc's Johannes quotes when building the 1603 mouse you will see the difference the light parts make and we have the short stroke crank on our side too. 

I think the dry sump oil system is a big improvement in this engine over the old wet sump I have been running in my engines previously. I had been avoiding it as I was not convinced all the extra weight and complication was worth it on performance grounds, but what swung it for me this time was a reliable better quality oil supply. In the old 1795 I was struggling with rod bearings and I believe this was down to either oil starvation or poor quality (aerated) oil at the pickup tube. Consequently the dry sump system became an easy choice and any small performance gain there may be is also an advantage. I appreciate the 21mm supply pump sounds very small to many, but I have heard from several people that I respect who have first hand experience with them and they have found them to be fine in applications which are actually likely to be more onerous than mine. 

There are many unproven things in this engine, but hopefully this time next year we will have more ticks than crosses against them!

Peter

Sounds extremely well thought out! i forgot about the steel plates (was that your post id seen them in?) sounds like a  fully tricked out bottom end!
I've not heard anything bad about the CB pumps from people who have actually used them. Cant wait to see how you get on, i'm sure any issues if any, you'll be able to over come.
Whats you thoughts on rebuild periods in terms of run time?
as has been said, is this some kind of record?

Best of luck!  Cool
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Martin Greaves
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Posts: 1740


10.88@128.58


« Reply #753 on: December 24, 2014, 21:03:30 pm »

Hi Martin,

Shell V power for the street, but Sunoco 260GT Plus for racing.

Peter

That what I thought you was going to stay with and I know it's a street car. But what about upping the CR and running Methanol at a later date now you have FI.
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Hahaha your killing me.........
volkskris
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Posts: 456



« Reply #754 on: December 25, 2014, 10:32:29 am »

Incredible work. I would love to see the torque curve of this engine, it wouldn't surprise me if it was wider then you would expect from a screamer like this . Smiley
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spanners
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Posts: 286



« Reply #755 on: December 25, 2014, 11:27:39 am »

Gears are the key with a screamer, no old fashioned four speeder would cut it,  but Peter has it covered already. Wink
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Best regards, spanners.
Type1/DVK
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Posts: 315



« Reply #756 on: December 25, 2014, 12:32:58 pm »

Wow, thanks for the info! very nice figures!
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DDD#8 - 14.74sec @ 1776cc - Member of:  DVK ~ Der Vollgas Kreuzers  - www.ultimatevw.nl - and racing engines
dive!dive!
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Posts: 84


« Reply #757 on: December 25, 2014, 13:22:55 pm »

Sitting here smiling as I keep forgetting Pete's car is used on the street..... I can just imagine pulling to 10k on some of the roads where I live....bonkers, just bonkers. And, I thought I was done with mine, but now I realise a NEED a hewland.......
Season greetings,
Steve
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JS
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« Reply #758 on: December 25, 2014, 13:45:57 pm »

Congratulations on the awesome achievement Pete, it is well deserved!  Smiley

J.
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spanners
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« Reply #759 on: December 26, 2014, 16:38:41 pm »

but now I realise a NEED a hewland.......Steve

Quaife also have a suitable sequencial transaxle available, they are very accommodating, and will provide the ratios you specify.
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Best regards, spanners.
Lee.C
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I might be an Idiot but I'm not an Arsehole!


« Reply #760 on: December 26, 2014, 20:45:58 pm »

You should come a Race @ SCC Pete.......

I am sure there are a few "Northern" racers who will want a chat  Wink Smiley

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,23865.0.html
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You either "Get It" or you don't......
Peter Shattock
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Posts: 340


« Reply #761 on: December 26, 2014, 22:51:34 pm »

No methanol for me Martin. Its a compromised position to run race gas at all, but a necessary evil in this case. Racing on pump gas might be possible, but a detonation risk not worth taking with what I have invested in this engine. It may be less relevant with this cam but something I've justified as a sensible compromise. The beauty is there is no messing around swapping fuels draining etc as they can mix, so I can just top up with race fuel at the track and top up with pump gas for the drive home.

Volkschris, I have some more video footage which will give you some idea of the torque curve, which I will try and post at some point. As you say its surprisingly strong for the little screamer. It certainly gives some good area under the curve in the critical rpm operating window for the racing bit anyway. Having not driven it on the street yet I'm not sure how it will be, but from what I've seen on the dyno it looks smooth but aggressive. I should be able to post some roll on roll off throttle runs when warming the engine before a pull to demonstrate if I can get it on Youtube.

Spanners as you say the 6 speed was a necessary part of the master plan. Interesting that Quaife make a suitable box too, I was not aware not that I have any plans to change now! How are the output shaft / axel centreline relative to VW box? I did have to move the Hewland box forward and down a little to keep the engine in the stock location. Nothing drastic though I think 18mm forward and 13mm down ring a bell.

Thanks again for the props I can feel the warmth in the garage already! J perhaps we'll see you at DDD, would be good to be at the track together with our cars one day!

Lee, nice thought but as you know its a hell of a long way Time away from home is hard to come by these days so any travel abroad will be restricted to DDD in 2015 if all goes to plan.

Peter
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The fastest beetle in the village
peejke
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Posts: 113


Keep it simple...


« Reply #762 on: February 03, 2015, 13:09:19 pm »

I drove my '57 single cab to DDD in 2014 (240 km), took of the belt , and drove a 17.93 sec. quarter mile . This running a 1776 with berg counterweight crank , cb heads , dual 40 IDF , and so on.
If I look at the busses with attitude site, I guess it's the bus with the smallest engine yet to get under the 18sec mark. Pretty happy with this , cause I drive it all over Europe for more then 5 years now.
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way to much old shit at home, ...
'57 single cab, 1776 powered
'71 baywindow westy , 1835 powered
'54 oval ragtop , texas brown , stock as hell
flandria sport moped collection, other old mopeds, BSA A65 cafe racer, yamaha SR500 dirt tracker
pWolf
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« Reply #763 on: March 09, 2015, 21:13:39 pm »

Such an inspiration this thread! Thank you guys! Smiley
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pWolf
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« Reply #764 on: March 14, 2015, 18:54:38 pm »

Found this little devil on Facebook !

1400 CC 153 bhp

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152682595155969
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leec
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« Reply #765 on: March 14, 2015, 19:03:24 pm »

Interesting, would love to know more about that.

I thought the rolling road video was a little weird, why leave it at full throttle for a long period of time?
Most I have seen hit peak revs then let off?
Lee
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wph
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« Reply #766 on: March 14, 2015, 21:30:52 pm »

Interesting, would love to know more about that.

I thought the rolling road video was a little weird, why leave it at full throttle for a long period of time?
Most I have seen hit peak revs then let off?
Lee

Dyno looks like to be a real old skool, it may have manual load control thus the prolonged "pull"
on high revs to stabilise the readings on the meters. I have used a setup like that somewhere
around 1990 while in technical school, it was a really old even back then  Smiley   
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WPS
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« Reply #767 on: March 16, 2015, 16:57:52 pm »

This engine is something I've been building for Drew Pritchard of Salvage Hunters 'fame' since the begining of the year to race at Goodwood 73rd Members Meeting with the HRDC in the Touring Greats class.
It's 1405cc (69x80.5) using genuine VW crank/case and 1300 twinport heads along with some bored out early 77mm cylinders with some aftermarket Mahle pistons.
We made 151 'steady' HP@6400rpm on the 'old school' rollers.....it peaked at 154 but the numbers don't really matter as long as it's improving with the adjustments we're doing and the A/F ratio is safe etc.....the extended periods are to stabilise the readings and simulate the straights on a circuit i.e. full throttle for 5-10 seconds at max revs (the 'Cogbox' is pretty close to make the most of everything).....it's to check the fuel supply 'works'......that video is at approx.5k....it sounds better at 7 :-) but then doesn't everything?
The car ran great on the test day at Goodwood last friday and will be driven by ex BTCC champion Robb Gravett at this weekends event.....it's been many years since a VW competed at Goodwood (50 odd I think?) so it'll be good to see how it compares to the competition......should be fun!! :-)

Ian



























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Wolfsburg Performance Services

   WolfsburgPerformance.co.uk

      Instagram:  wpsengines

             07880-311850.
leec
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Posts: 2579


« Reply #768 on: March 16, 2015, 18:13:26 pm »

Thanks for the info Ian. Another fantastic looking engine too!
Lee
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pWolf
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« Reply #769 on: March 17, 2015, 23:30:22 pm »

Thanks for Info ! Fantastic!
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Pas
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Posts: 562



« Reply #770 on: March 21, 2015, 13:20:13 pm »

Quote
from WPS

The car ran great on the test day at Goodwood last friday and will be driven by ex BTCC champion Robb Gravett at this weekends event.....it's been many years since a VW competed at Goodwood (50 odd I think?) so it'll be good to see how it compares to the competition.
Quote
Watched it online today, looking good so far, keeping up with the big boys!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 22:00:06 pm by Pas » Logged

You stay classy, Cal-look Lounge.
Iryanu
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« Reply #771 on: March 29, 2015, 10:12:09 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_XCzuAvZ4

 Cool
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Rocket Ron
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Posts: 2861


It's old school for a reason


« Reply #772 on: April 20, 2015, 08:42:23 am »

The force is strong with this thread

Very cool  Cool
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13.12 @ 101.84

Grooving out on life

You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter
Rocket Ron
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It's old school for a reason


« Reply #773 on: April 25, 2015, 08:56:33 am »

The engine is sitting in the engine stand now, will run in cam, and comment the pictures later.


The cylinders are about 20mm shorter than std length.

The std 85,5mm pistons has a weight of 568g the JE 86mm weights only 388g, 180g lighter.


The pushrods are 254mm long, it is not unusuall to have pushrods between 275-285mm in stroker engines.

"Mouse Motor" waiting for cam brake in, only with the outer valvespring, the dual OTEVA 75 springs has 165lbs in the seat and 370lbs at 15,5mm lift.The weight of the spring is only 64g.

"Beetlbug" the header is tuned to 8000rpm as the rest of the engine, the #2 and #4 tubes will be too long if I place them in the ordonary style.


Johannes

I know these Pistons are custom bore size but is the pin height and skirt length the same a stroker "b" Pistons?

Regards Ron

« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:47:31 am by Ron Elliot » Logged

13.12 @ 101.84

Grooving out on life

You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter
Torben Alstrup
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Posts: 716


« Reply #774 on: April 25, 2015, 11:20:22 am »

I - think - I remember that.
No, they are much shorter. 28mm IIR

T
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Rocket Ron
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Posts: 2861


It's old school for a reason


« Reply #775 on: April 25, 2015, 14:12:12 pm »

I - think - I remember that.
No, they are much shorter. 28mm IIR

T

Thanks for the reply
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13.12 @ 101.84

Grooving out on life

You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter
Peter Shattock
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Posts: 340


« Reply #776 on: May 03, 2015, 21:00:16 pm »

So here it is through a muffler we mocked up

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2TWe0DaRkgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/2TWe0DaRkgU

Turn up the volume and enjoy!

Peter
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The fastest beetle in the village
JS
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Posts: 1628



« Reply #777 on: May 04, 2015, 17:09:46 pm »

So here it is through a muffler we mocked up

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2TWe0DaRkgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/2TWe0DaRkgU

Turn up the volume and enjoy!

Peter

Jesus!!  Grin Cheesy
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Zach Gomulka
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Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.


« Reply #778 on: May 04, 2015, 17:39:55 pm »

So here it is through a muffler we mocked up

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2TWe0DaRkgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/2TWe0DaRkgU

Turn up the volume and enjoy!

Peter

Jesus!!  Grin Cheesy

You said it, man.
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Born in the '80s, stuck in the '70s.
Peter Shattock
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Posts: 340


« Reply #779 on: May 23, 2015, 22:26:28 pm »

As always with me there has been a longer than expected break between race reports, but I finally got the car where it needed to be to be able to run it down the track this weekend at UKDD. This is a great event for the racers no frills just racing and breakfast and a nice bunch of people to go racing with. So the first thankyou goes to the UKDD team for organising a great event.

As ever a number of late nights were required to get the car ready the week before, but I fired the car up on Friday morning on the drive much to our neighbours delight to check all was well and it started on the button. No leaks and it all sounded good. So I loaded up and dragged the car round to Dave Dining who had offered to give me a lift to the track in his lorry. Dave wasnít racing which was not great for him but it was for me as it meant I didnít need to sleep in a tent or the car.

So after the usual rubbish Friday traffic on the M25 we got there and set up with the help fo Alex, Lee and Dave. I ran the car up again and drove it round the pits to check the clutch and gears were all where they were meant to be and all was well. So we just chilled out for the night ready for the day ahead

Saturday morning was a bit windy, but the sun was out and it was dry. I fired the car up in the morning to get some heat into it but noticed a leak from the fuel regulator which I soon fixed. So we went down to the start line for the first run down the track in what had been a long while. The problem was when we got there the car had other ideas as it would only run for a short period of time then stall. It turned out that if I had thought about it I would have realised my fuel leak issue was more than just a fuel leak. The leak was actually from what should have been the dry side of the diaphragm in the regulator which my want to race my car brain had not noticed at the time. Fortunately Dave had his brain in gear and pointed it out. So what was happening was that the air side of the diaphragm was filling with fuel that would not compress so the fuel pressure had no release so ran to 125 psi that the pump can pump too. This meant the engine saw much more fuel than it wanted and it flooded and stalled once the pressure built up.

This is where Michael (Tiki Madness) came to my rescue. He was good enough to lend me his fuel pressure regulator (thanks again Michael) which he had to take off his own car. So I lashed it on my car fired it up and set the fuel pressure and we were all good again and ready to run.

Iím sure all you races know how much better it feels to have the first run out of the way, but I really am hopeless until I have a run under my belt. After  the first pass I can actually concentrate far better on what Iím meant to be doing it sounds stupid but that is just the way it works for me.

What I havenít mentioned is that now the engine is all controlled via the ECU and the laptop had decided to throw its rattle out of the pram I was working completely blind. Typically laptop that had been fine all winter but decided to have a moment on Friday night and basically not allow me to open the engine management program. This meant I could not set up any of the parameters I had hoped to this weekend.

Needless to say I took a reasonable amount of stick about this from the IDA magneto brigade.

No matter how nicely I spoke to the laptop it was not having any of it. Needless to say this was not at all ideal given the whole idea of the weekend was to set all this stuff up, but it was where I was so I just decided to get some time in the car with a view to getting the hang of driving it again.

I have never used a rev counter or shift light for racing in the past which did help a bit with the driving, but when I was running a regular 4 speed box where there was a bit more time between shifts. When I first ran the 6 speed a couple of years ago I decided I would fit a shift light given there is less time between the shifts to get a feel of where you are. Also with the higher rev range of the new engine I thought it may be more difficult to judge.

So off I went with no rev counter or shift light for a first stab at a run.

On this first run I decided to lift with the shifts too, just to get back into it. This resulted in a 12.16 @ 115mph which was a good start and the car looked and felt fine but for a small oil leak from the dipstick. So once it cooled down I went again and flat shifted this time. The 60ft was rubbish but an 11.79 at 118mph I was pleased with. This was a new mph record for me into what was a decent headwind. What was not so nice was that I shut off to quickly through the top end and the car had a big move to the right. I was in the left lane so moved over towards the centre line. Ian was in the right lane and was moving to the left. I understand from those on the start line that it looked quite close, but actually it was fine for Ian and I.

The last run of the day was again a poor 60ft but an 11.11@111mph. The low mph in this case was because the car moved a bit into 6th gear (might have been wind as there was quite a cross wind) so I just lifted to calm it down. The 11.11 with a poor start and a shut off clearly showed some potential for the following day though and was a positive end to the day.

This combination is all about a 10 so the fact it was a new PB for me almost passed me by at the time, but it pointed towards the potential of better things to come.

That said I've been in this sort of position before and I have found itís so easy to overdrive the car on the next run, when actually you need to relax, but I find that easier to say than do!

So Sunday morning came round and I fueled up with tea and bacon rolls and headed down to the start again with a bit less tire pressure in a hope of finding a bit more traction. I did a quick scrub of the tires and the track felt good. Went up to the line but spun the tires badly again. Still an 11.24 was a good start to the day and I managed 119mph so another mph pb. I did much the same for the next run with a slightly better 60ft and managed a 11.19 again at 119mph.

I had decided early on in the weekend that I was not going to do burnouts. This was principally as last time out with the 1795 I had some solid 60fts with just a quick scrub of the tires so I figured that would be good enough for a first time out with the new motor.

What I had not factored in was the clutch. The clutch in the 1795 was always marginal so I stepped up a notch with the new set up which was clearly proving to be up to the job as I had had no noticeable slip or the usual smell of clutch that accompanied the car when I returned to the pits which was common with old set up. This was a positive thing but as with most things when you change one thing it effects another, which I think is exactly what happened. The new clutch was hitting harder and was spinning the tires. So having said to myself that I was not going to do a burnout I decided that I would.

I say I decided, but it was decided for me as the unanimous opinion of those who we watching the car for me on the start line was that they were fed up seeing me spin the tires, so it was timeÖ..

So I did a small burn out and sure enough it left the line better although still not perfect by any stretch. The car then ran clean for the rest of the run and sailed out the top end with no fuss. I came back round parked up and hoped out to see I that I had a collection of leaking pushrod tubes on the 1 and 2 side of the motor. So was initially thinking thatís not good, but then a guy (sorry I don't know who you were if you read this) came up to me and said I had just run 10.9* which needless to say lightened the annoyance of the pushrod tubes somewhat! At this point I was busting to see the timing ticket to make sure it was me, but then Ian rocked up as he ran in the pair after me then Dave Alex and Lee with the timing ticket and it was an all-round knees up!

Now without wanting to sound un grateful this is not the 10 I am after in the master plan as I did not drive the car to the track and its not currently road legal, but needless to say it was a major step in the right direction and a great achievement.

Having calmed down, the obvious thing to want to do is go again and back it up. Unfortunately this was not meant to be as the pushrod tubes were not happy bunnies and were leaking enough oil after the burnout for the start line crew to shut me down which is fair enough as no one wants to be responsible for oiling the track.

So that was it for the weekend. It was a big step for me and the car with all the odds stacked against a 10 it did it.

There is now a long list of jobs to attend to before I get the car to the track again, but it has proved to be reliable this weekend at least. This was always going to be the first milestone and understandably there have been doubters and I'm not saying it's the ultimate test of reliability, but this last weekend its taken a big step in the right direction to proving it's self. The reality it could have done no more Tha it has done.

I now need to check all is well in general and sort my 1 and 2 side pushrods which in some cases look to be hitting the pushrod tubes and I think that is what is causing them to leak. I have a plan B which I hope to sort out when I'm back from our family holiday next week.

I'm also sorting an engine tray so that if plan B does not solve the problem I'm not going to oil the track.

I've got the bits to fix the fuel pressure regulator and some more pushrod tubes to try so fingers crossed I can get the car race ready for Volkslife show at SCR on the 6th 7th June.

That just leaves the thankyou's and there are lots of people that have helped me and the car get to this point. Far to many to list here without it sounding like an Oscar winning acceptance speech, but clearly Ian and Peter have been in this with me from the very beginning and deserve special thanks along with countless others who have played their part in years gone by and more recently.

I have to finish with a special thanks to Johannes as this would not have happened without him.

He is a man with a real passion for these unlikely little performance engines. The level of performance he has managed to achieve with this and many other engines before it will I'm sure make his name known for years to come like some of the great names from the past in our sport.

His talents and experience are not just limited ACVW's and its perhaps this more rounded knowledge and wide ranging experience with anything from single cylinder MX engines to Koenigsegg's that gives him such a depth of skill and understanding.

Best of all though, amongst all the big ideas, serious thinking and hard work he is a very genuine and humble guy, which makes the long trips to Sweden a whole lot easier to make.

So now I need to get after my driving it to and from the track 10 which is the next big challenge, well that and proving that 10.97 was not a fluke!

Peter

 
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The fastest beetle in the village
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