Small powerhouses and old school

[Bruce]

IMO, you are looking in the wrong direction.
The most reliable hp is displacement.  Getting 120hp out of a 1600 NA is not easy.  Don't believe anyone that says it is.

[Torben Alstrup]

In my time I have built a couple of these small engine with that hp range. 120 hp out of a 1600 cc for daily use is stretching it, witout saying impossible. 1680 cc. with 117 - 120 usable hp is not a problem. The few extra cc. helps making it driveable at all rpm. There are a couple of solutions. I have my own of course.

I have a 1600 cc 110 hp version that works very well on the street, and a (rpm limited) 100 hp versoin built mainly out of stock parts. The key is to make the engine pull torque soon enough to make it decent in the lower rpm. Its absolutely possible, but you have to think a little different than mainstream.
But from there to JPM´s or Autocraft´s heads & engines is a giant leap.

T

[Jon]

I have modified my post as it was unclear at one point, I was talking about a "non-stroker" (1915) not a 1600.
Thats why I mention the cylinder kit.

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

[Zach Gomulka]

My daily driver 1600 went 14.8's @ 88mph. The car was light (noisy), and had close 3-4. But it was a simple and relatively inexpensive combo that worked very well. Someday Ill build a "clone" with the new tricks Ive learned

[Bruce]

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.

[Project_X]

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.

Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

[Tom G.]

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.

Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

expensive.....Heads and pistons are the most expensive parts...i think within all parts,+ his own working time it will be 4000-5000€ for this engine....

Bye
Tom

[Udo]

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.

Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo

[Project_X]

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.

Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo

ok, cool thanks, also anyone know what 4000-5000€ is in American money by chance?LOL

[Frallan]

4000 €  to 5000€ is 5700 usd to 7250 USD according to international rates of today.

[Bruce]

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.

I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.

Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do something different.  But when you are on a tight budget, you won't get there.

[Bruce]

For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo

A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776.  What's the big deal about that?

Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp.

[Jon]

JPM built this engine to test what could be done with cheap parts in combination with know how. As he does his own heads this has for him been a very cheap, as for the rest of us we have to add the cost of having a pair of head built.

[Project_X]

5700 bucks to build a 1603cc to get 176hp? Is that what your saying it would cost to build that motor? JPM is in Sweden right? So if I got heads from him and that exhaust it would cost double since IM in Florida...umm holy crap LOL

[Udo]

For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo

A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776.  What's the big deal about that?

Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp.

Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ?

Everybody has his own experience , i only work with good quality cranks like scat , okrasa , gene berg .

Udo

[Bruce]

CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289.

Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp?

[stealth67vw]

Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ?

Hard to justify spending $150-200 for DPR or DMS stock c/w crank when you can find cheap Chinese 78-84 strokers for $199.00.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=388182

[Udo]

CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289.

Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp?

A longblock would be something about 3000 euros , depends on what new parts you want . And a 2 liter starts at 4000 .

Udo

[Johannes Persson]

Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm
TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Talk to you later
Johannes

[folkevogn]

Holy crap!!!!!!
to me, that is taking it to the next level!
I`m going insane here, I desperatly want to hear the motor run,  please post a clip off the dyno run NOW 
I`m speachless!your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm

[Zach Gomulka]

That is awesome. I never dreamed you could get those kind of numbers out of 1600cc. Even the torque figure looks very respectable. If you could, Id love to see a dyno graph to show the power and torque curves.

What is the compression ratio??

[Lee.C]

"your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm"

Exactly dude 

[Torben Alstrup]

Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm
TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Talk to you later
Johannes

AAAALLRIIIGHT !!!!  Impressive numbers. Where does it begin to make power ?
Torben

[Jon]

Johannes told me on the phone tonight that the engine has a very wide power band, in fact he compares it with a Japanese motorcycle. 

I knew from past experiences with JPM that he delivers when he says he's going to do something, but I confess to having thought that this was a far stretch. The man knows his stuff!

Can't wait for that video!!
 
 

[Frallan]

A little bit of JPM "bragging" ...I like to brag about you Johannes.
I subscribe to some Formula one and High tech racing magazines, in them I could read last year that the supercar manufacturer Koenigsegg are getting in to racing. Not just world record runs but real racing.
It was mentioned about some few companies that would assist them in further development of the car and on the engine company, JPM was mentioned.
I like that.

Anyway, Congratulations Johannes to the new Mouse concept!
Nice move, nice touch to the all of us in the ACVW comunity.

[Project_X]

Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm
TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Talk to you later
Johannes

Thats awesome!
Now send it to Or. Florida and I'll be happy to test it in my bug....course I wouldnt ship it back to you 

[eugene]

I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled to engineering and practical knowledge really mean.  The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected as unworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with such builds. Bravo!

[BeetleBug]

I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled to engineering and practical knowledge really mean.  The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected as unworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with such builds. Bravo!

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first post here on The Lounge and I totally agree - congrats with the impressive results Johannes!

Best rgs
Kalle

[Tobi/DFL]

I´m simply overwhelmed by those numbers! Thanks a lot for sharing so much knowledge with us, Johannes!

Tobi

[Tom G.]

I can only repeat...AWESOME....117 HP/L.......

Tom