asking all the stupid questions regarding building engines...

[nicolas]

ok i have just gotten back from the shop with a crank and case and a bunch of parts that should make up the shortblock of my engine, less cam, as that still needs to be balanced. but it all looks really good to me and i hope that i can work on as much as possibleduring the 2 week holiday with Christmas...
anyway a lot of parts are piling up in the garage, but like the title says i will ask a lot off obvious and dumb questions regading builing this engine. feel free to post yours as well. i will feel less an idiot that way and you are saved just in time to do a good deed this year.

thanks

here i go: what do i use? stroker pistons or non stroker pistons on a 78x90.5 engine? i have heard that i should use stroker pistons and machine the cylinders to get the CR right... or do i need to go for spacers and have the non-stroker ones??? i want to be able to use the stock cooling as much as possible on the type3.

and: do i block off the original cooler completely on a fullflow engine or not? i have the system with the exit on the pumpcover and the entrance on the back oilreliefvalve. i have heard arguments saying i should still use the original cooler, some other say completely blockit off and others that say to put on a plate that gets rid of the cooler but still alows some flow...

[Donny B.]

I would use the stroker pistons if you can they make for a narrower engine.  It's important in a bug, but if in a type III not so important.  If you have to use too many shims with non stroker pistons that can raise other issues.  Either should work in your case.  I would leave the stock cooler in place.  Even if you run an external oil cooler I would keep it.  You should use an oil thermostat if you use an external cooler.  Plumb the cooler after the oil filter.  That means the oil goes through the filter then the cooler before returning to the engine.

[Bruce]

...., less cam, as that still needs to be balanced.

Go and get your cam.  It does not need to be balanced.  In fact, it can't be balanced.  Have a look down the shaft, the lobes are not evenly spaced. Also, it does not spin fast enough to make any difference.

Keep your stock cooler.  There's nothing to gain by taking it out.

[nicolas]

...., less cam, as that still needs to be balanced.

Go and get your cam.  It does not need to be balanced.  In fact, it can't be balanced.  Have a look down the shaft, the lobes are not evenly spaced. Also, it does not spin fast enough to make any difference.

Keep your stock cooler.  There's nothing to gain by taking it out.

and what am i paying for then 

i allready payed a lot more to have the case done properly...

you are probally right about the cam...

[Bruce]

i allready payed a lot more to have the case done properly...

What were you getting done to the case?

[nicolas]

i allready payed a lot more to have the case done properly...

What were you getting done to the case?

line bored, opened up for the 90.5 cylinders and apparantly i had to have the front bearingseat redone. it had endplay on it and now i need a bigger offset bearing on that one... don't really know why, but that was an unexpected cost. plus i have a 78 crank now but still a stockstyle clutch... i wanted a KEP stage1, but things got mixed up and it didn't get balanced together, so now i have a balanced crank with a stock clutch. not too bad if it holds,but i am thinking of putting a dualfriction disc to have some added grip anyway. just small things really.

[Lids]

your crank, clutch timing gear, in fact all of it needs to be balanced.  If you change your clutch later(not the disc) then it will all need doing again.

[nicolas]

your crank, clutch timing gear, in fact all of it needs to be balanced.  If you change your clutch later(not the disc) then it will all need doing again.

i thought so. so it will be stock clutch and a dualfriction disc. i have heard that you can step down one stage in pressure by using this disc. i read it somewhere on a site or catalogue.
thanks

i will go with all the parts to a friend who helps me build the engine later today, so i guess i have plenty of questions by this evening 

[Diederick/DVK]

why do kennedy pressure plates come with a warning that they have already been balanced.
and that you should NOT take them to your engine builder to get balanced cos they do more harm to it than necessary?

[Lids]

why do kennedy pressure plates come with a warning that they have already been balanced.
and that you should NOT take them to your engine builder to get balanced cos they do more harm to it than necessary?

When i had mine balanced, everything even the bolts were number so it all went back in the same place.  Read the article in this months Volksworld. I'm using a Kennedy clutch, i don't remember this warning in the packaging!!

Sounds like bull to me

[The Ideaman]

On your type 3, bring the fan to be balanced, too.  Get it welded, just like a type 1 fan.  Granted, it only spins as fast as the crank, but it is cheap insurance.

[nicolas]

On your type 3, bring the fan to be balanced, too.  Get it welded, just like a type 1 fan.  Granted, it only spins as fast as the crank, but it is cheap insurance.

the fan and all is balanced al together, no welding though... but i have one that was blasted and know what to look for when it happens...    a real mess, but it was becaus the fan rubbed the housing. and it all had to be done as it is a heavy fan and pulley in a type3. i even had a stock flywheel put on again to have a better weight distribution. i will see what it all does. but it is a 'fun' engine and not a real race engine yet.
anyway no real big issues yet as we didn't get to it last night. my friend is working on a fully tuned Wrangler Jeep to go and scare some little rabits in the woods...
but i still need an enginestand. someone has a spare one for me?

[Zach Gomulka]

Use the stroker pistons.
Leave the stock cooler in there- if you want to upgrade, replace it with a type 4 cooler and modify the tin to fit. You will also have to relocate your sending unit to the side of the case, just like a type 1.

[nicolas]

ok didn't get my parts today. but i was on the phone and talked about a new oilpumpcover with a pressure relief valve. can't make up my mind if i need it or not... it should be a safety for the oilfilter not to blow up when the oil is cold and pressure too high. but do i need it? and how does that effect the oilsystem? i will need to grind again in the coolinghousing and i am not completly sure about the clearance.

so any ideas about what hight i my come out at with the stroker pistons and cylinders and what do i need to do to get about 1,2mm of deckhight?

[Jim Ratto]

ok didn't get my parts today. but i was on the phone and talked about a new oilpumpcover with a pressure relief valve. can't make up my mind if i need it or not... it should be a safety for the oilfilter not to blow up when the oil is cold and pressure too high. but do i need it? and how does that effect the oilsystem? i will need to grind again in the coolinghousing and i am not completly sure about the clearance.

so any ideas about what hight i my come out at with the stroker pistons and cylinders and what do i need to do to get about 1,2mm of deckhight?

Hi nicolas, hope I can help you with some of this..

Sounds like your case needed a "thrust cut" along with a line bore. The thrust surface of the case was worn beyond spec, so a standard #1 main bearing would just "float" in the saddles, not "crush" in. We used to see a lot of case that needed this, and Jerry would cut as little from thrust as possible, then cut the special # 1 bearing to fit and have good crush. No big deal, if done right. Something you might think about doing too, is making small oiling grooves on the thrust shoulder of the # 1 bearing. One side already has oiling indents, you can use a round file to carefully make grooves (4 of the 90 degrees apart from one another) on the other side.

Along with the others that said so, I would use stroker pistons. My 94 x 78 came out @ .062" deck with no shims or copper head gaskets, and that is how I have built it. I like 78mm stroke motors for that reason, among others. Try building an 84mm with long rods sometime....it's a bitch.

You will probably have to grind some clearance notches in the Type 3 fan surround, in order to clear the full flow fittings, cover and lines. I full flowed a Type 3 back in 1992 for a girlfriend and I had to make some room in the fan housing. Die grinder works, then when you mount it against case, use some type of RTV to seal up gaps in the holes. No big deal, dude. You will need some 90 degree AN-8 fittings to get the line right. I wouldn't use a bypass-relief oil pump cover, I have had and seen issues with the ball "sticking" and loss of oil pressure result from it.
Use stock VW bypass relief springs and valves in the case and don't romp on it when the engine is cold. Use a good oil filter, like HP1 or Canton-Mecca or System 1 and you'll be a-ok.

see ya
Jim

[nicolas]

thanks jim. i like talking 'engine' with you. you make it easy for me. i can understand what we are talking about. 

so indeed i have a thrust-cut because of float. and the notches are a good idea, i have seen it on the article about the berg sceamer engine an i was thinking of doing that. (it was a question in the making)

as for the setup with the fullflow i allready have it done to the cooling tin and shroud so it should be OK. i have worked on that one for a day to cut out just what is necessary and only need a thin coat of sealer to finish it completely. but if the pressure valve is such a great idea i wanted to make the extra effort. but it seems to be a personal thing. so i probally wont run it. all other fittings work ok and i have had good pressure and few bents in this solution so it will stay as it was. i only need to be carefull when i drive the engine cold. but that is a good idea anyway...

and thanks for the measurement on the stroker pistons. i otherwise would have to get a set of both styles and measure them up myself. so now i have some idea about what to expect.

as for the cooler i think i will need to talk to some more people about the lubrication aspects... i don't really care about the cooling as i have an extrenal cooler with fan that should do the trick on this engine as well as the previous conviguration.
but the main problem was the oil not getting to the galleries properly and causing oil to loose pressure.

[nicolas]

hey best wishes to all of you!

i hate newyearresolutions so i wont make any but i have woken up this morning and found a new breath to tackle some workon the engine. i was a bit bummed about not having theparts this holiday,but i'll get them eventually.

but i did get a enginestand fixed to the workbench and the case on it. i also wanted to measure up the hight of the pistons with the 78 crank, but that didn't happen because the crank with stockstyle rods wont turn inthe case. i knew this would happen at the top of the case and i will be grinding some of that away this week, but it also hits the bearing sadle of the midle bearing of my cam... i am not sure what and where i can grind on that part... pics would help to see what can be done. i sure don't want to ruin the case.
and it is also rubbing against the sides of the case. close to the casesavers and cylinderholes of number 3 cylinder. it is the thick parts between the opening and bearingsaddle of the crank. i will try to upload some pics later. but can i just grind it away freely and can i grind the casesavers if it wont clear them??? i suspect it will, but it will be close.

thanks

building this is going to be a though one... at first i thought it would be 'just swapping the crank and cam' and bold eveything back together...  so it is not but i am still pretty confident i can pull this one off with some dedication and good knowledge.

[Peter]

hi Nicolas,
here s a pic of my case, you can see where material is removed from the saddle
i saw a pic in super vw tech and the case savers were grinded also

you can find good pics here also:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=102663

sorry , its another forum

have fun building!!!

[Diederick/DVK]

why do kennedy pressure plates come with a warning that they have already been balanced.
and that you should NOT take them to your engine builder to get balanced cos they do more harm to it than necessary?

i still don't get this. i really says so...
do i need to scan the piece of paper?

[Jordy/DVK]

It really says so... do i need to scan the piece of paper?

I can vouch for that...

[nicolas]

here are the pics. the part i am most worried about is the bearingsaddle... i have put the bearing in and there is extra space next to it. and that is the part that needs to be grinded. but i first wanted to show it to all  off you before i would ruinin the case.

[Peter]

Diederick,
i was worried about that one too,
read it also...
Jake Raby told me some time ago that they are supposed to be balanced at the factory,
but in many cases, he had to remove weight
quality isnt what it used to be i guess

[Jim Ratto]

here are the pics. the part i am most worried about is the bearingsaddle... i have put the bearing in and there is extra space next to it. and that is the part that needs to be grinded. but i first wanted to show it to all  off you before i would ruinin the case.

I had to grind the center cam bearing housing when I ran 82 & 84mm in my old case, there is still plenty of material there. I would just make sure you have .040" and round off sharp edges and CLEAN it after.

[nicolas]

so i know what i'll be eating tomorrow.

the dremel is out and i will get to work, hopefully tomorrow. it will take a while to clear everything and afterwards clean evrything out. i have put in the cambearing today and indeed saw that the saddle is a bit larger as the bearing. so i can cut that a little. but just enough to clear all the rods and crank.

i also found a small bag in the box with the pins to hold the bearings in place. so that will be a task as well.

[besserwisser]

Take a good look at a VW standard camlobes before you put it all together. There is a reason for why they put a 45 dgree bevel on the lobe.

[nicolas]

hey, i still am on a diet of aluminium and magnesium these days. i start to sparkle a little, but that is OK.

anyway i start to get that thing fitted and all the excess material removed. it has to fit and come out OK. i will see if this really works if i have done both halves and bolted them together and put some pistons and cylinders on that thing.
all went well, except one thing, when i testrotate the crank the counterweight right after the number one rod (starting from the flywheelside) hits the case on the top of the stud. i can't explain, but i have included a pic...  don't look where my finger is pointing, it is the circle-like thing that matters.
it only happens when the crank is pushed back towards the pulley side, if it is pushed towards the flywheelside all is fine and rotates nicely. but i need to get that crank centered, is that what the shims do that i have to put behind the flywheel? endplayshims i think. i also still need to get the special bearing for that side, maybe that will cure the rocking...

anyway, i hop that i can continue this work and have some more done by the end off the weekend.

[Jim Ratto]

hey, i still am on a diet of aluminium and magnesium these days. i start to sparkle a little, but that is OK.

anyway i start to get that thing fitted and all the excess material removed. it has to fit and come out OK. i will see if this really works if i have done both halves and bolted them together and put some pistons and cylinders on that thing.
all went well, except one thing, when i testrotate the crank the counterweight right after the number one rod (starting from the flywheelside) hits the case on the top of the stud. i can't explain, but i have included a pic...  don't look where my finger is pointing, it is the circle-like thing that matters.
it only happens when the crank is pushed back towards the pulley side, if it is pushed towards the flywheelside all is fine and rotates nicely. but i need to get that crank centered, is that what the shims do that i have to put behind the flywheel? endplayshims i think. i also still need to get the special bearing for that side, maybe that will cure the rocking...

anyway, i hop that i can continue this work and have some more done by the end off the weekend.

Are you saying counterweight hits case saver insert? The back of it? No big deal, grind the back of case saver with a grinding stone, if you break through be sure to glue the stud in with sealant on that one. Pull crank all the way towards flywheel end to check stuff.

[John Rayburn]

I wouldn't use the system one because it bypasses, when the engine is cold, at the bottom where all the crap sits. And I've seen blowouts on them as well. Some get a false sense of security with them and then they see a big blue cloud in their mirror. I've run them all and I always go back to an HP1 and the paper element. My oil always runs much cleaner with them.

[nicolas]

hey, i still am on a diet of aluminium and magnesium these days. i start to sparkle a little, but that is OK.

anyway i start to get that thing fitted and all the excess material removed. it has to fit and come out OK. i will see if this really works if i have done both halves and bolted them together and put some pistons and cylinders on that thing.
all went well, except one thing, when i testrotate the crank the counterweight right after the number one rod (starting from the flywheelside) hits the case on the top of the stud. i can't explain, but i have included a pic...  don't look where my finger is pointing, it is the circle-like thing that matters.
it only happens when the crank is pushed back towards the pulley side, if it is pushed towards the flywheelside all is fine and rotates nicely. but i need to get that crank centered, is that what the shims do that i have to put behind the flywheel? endplayshims i think. i also still need to get the special bearing for that side, maybe that will cure the rocking...

anyway, i hop that i can continue this work and have some more done by the end off the weekend.

Are you saying counterweight hits case saver insert? The back of it? No big deal, grind the back of case saver with a grinding stone, if you break through be sure to glue the stud in with sealant on that one. Pull crank all the way towards flywheel end to check stuff.

if i pull the crank all the way towards the flywheel all is fine. there is a mm off clearance between the bearing and counterweight. here is the pic i forgot to post it.


 

I wouldn't use the system one because it bypasses, when the engine is cold, at the bottom where all the crap sits. And I've seen blowouts on them as well. Some get a false sense of security with them and then they see a big blue cloud in their mirror. I've run them all and I always go back to an HP1 and the paper element. My oil always runs much cleaner with them.

i plan on using a HP1 filter or something similar we can get here in europe. i have used Mann filters before and they seem to work OK, or if i can get the O-berg in time that will be on the car.

[John Rayburn]

I've used the oberg and although you can inspect them, the oil still gets dirty fast. When I pulled the oberg off my car years ago, the oil was dirty and I put the HP1 back on and the oil acually got lighter and lighter over the following week. That convinced me that depite any micron size claim, the paper element still seems to do the best job of keeping things clean.