fast street cars

[nicolas]

just wanted to bring back a topic that Jim started about cars that are fun to drive. if can remeber corectly he was refering to cars that may not be the fastest or the best cars on the market, but rather something that puts a big smile on your face when you drive it. and still is able to kick you in your seat when you push the pedal.

i have come up with the same thing over the last weeks. as i am building the new engine (well in my mind at least) i have caught myself thinking about it's performance as well.
at first i would have been happy with an engine that had a slightly better power output as the previous one (say around 120HP) and a more reliable combo
but then i got to talk to Steve at his shop and was telling me about his heads being able to reach 150HP (the style he suggested for my engine anyway). so at first i was pleased to hear that, but soon i realised it takes a lot more effort and planning to have such a powerfull engine in my car... don't get me wrong, now i want the 150HP engine and if possible even better performance, but i could have settled for less. or would i?

well that brings us to the topic, what is a great power (hp/ torque) figure in any given car that has that wow-factor to it. maybe it is a 356 (light and decent power, but not as big as amercan cars of the same era). just what would be fun in my type3. i allready know it doesn't need to get the highest RPMs, but it needs to pull from 1000rpms till???, just like a ?

[Jim Ratto]

Hi nicolas, thanks for bringing this topic back up. I like what you're thinking. To me, there all kinds of car guys. Some guys are into having the best e.t. on time slips, and don't give a rat's ass how the car actually drives. Some of these same guys get upset with the slightest bit of dirt on the same car. Some guys enjoy collecting the desirable stuff that is drying up before our eyes. Some guys enjoy spending all their energy on getting every screw and circlip cad plated and so on. Some guys just want a car that looks presentable and works as a car, but want to scare the pants off themselves when they take the car out and nobody's around to slap their wrist.

To me, and I may be the only guy in the world that thinks this way.....but having a car be "fast" is made more from the sensation you get than from an e.t. at the strip. Sure, a car that boogies down the strip in under 13 seconds is obviously insanely fast. But to me, if that same car is a bitch to drive around like a "normal car" (so now we have to define "fast" and "normal" so far....) then it isn't "fun fast." To me it is about the sensation..  the snappy yowl from the carbs when you stomp the throttle, the whizz and zing from a nice tight valvetrain, the way the nose rises ahead of you when the cam comes on, the way the car has a pounding, off beat, hard-edged idle. The way the car gets through a corner under power, and brakes before a corner, and loads suspension....to me all this stuff makes a fun car that could be fast. If you want to talk numbers, think power to weight ratio... 13 lb per hp seems to be where to draw the line. So that's where I come up with the 150hp number. A 1900lb Bug with 150hp falls just below the 13lb/hp mark.
If you've driven or ridden in a car with a power to weight ratio in the 12's-13's then you know they are fast enough to wake you up.
Given that a VW has 60% of weight biased to the rear, I think that only adds to the rush when you accelerate. The car isn't going to waste a pair of tires like a front engine/rwd or front engine/fwd car is going to. It is going to squat and if it has sufficient rubber under the rear fender, it's going to launch. The lack of sound deadening and the noisiness of the air-cooled motor too... you hear it all with a Weber motor. Even a Kadron motor can sound mean and turn heads.
I'm not sure I have segued into this topic nicolas with what you were thinking, and I'm sorry if I just took the topic off in orbit.
have fun
Jim

[Diederick/DVK]

mmh, poetry on the lounge 

[Jim Ratto]

Dieds..

Anyway something else to think about.

"Fast" kind of depends on your surroundings too. Maybe the reason the 70's Cal Look cars seemed so fast was because all of the new "muscle cars" back then were being strangled like a goat by a python. Remember, this was the beginning of emissions standards. Six liter + V8's were making 150hp or so....now that's pathetic. And in a car weighing 3500lb +....now wonder little 125hp Bugs were cleaning their clocks.

Nowadays with 300hp Evos and STi's and so on....it changes the playing field.

[nicolas]

poetry it is, and exacly what i was refering to.

i got the idea of bringing back the topic as my dad has bought a 635CSI BMW form 83. and it has the same engine as a 535i he had when i was 18 and learing to drive. i know this car wouldn't run a decent quarter mile because of the weight, but it had a good sound and a nice reving engine. i liked how it was powerfull and how you need to know how to drive a car,otherwise it would set you off the road without any hesitation. a dangerous toy in the hands of an 18-year-old, but a great experience learning to handle it and 'feeling' the car.
but my fastback needs to be all that,but different. it needs to be lighter and more of a 2seater sportscar. i know a bug would suit my needs better,but it is a type3 that i have and that has to do the trick.

so i short all i need is the weight of my car, so i can decide what engine i need  

thanks jim.
have a glass of red wine and some french cheese, that would look good on a poetry-night.

[Harry/FDK]

Then, apart from the tranny, i build the right engine for me. It's doing fine in traffic, stays cool, and i can drive it to Bitburg, do low 15's and drive back home at 130 kmh.  It might not mean a lot to you guys, but it gives me a smile on the streets all the time.

[Diederick/DVK]

interesting topic indeed! i guess you'd need to look for more of a backroad engine like jim referred to some time ago.

completely off-topic, but i met a guy that put a 635CSI engine in a late 70ies 3 series. now, that sounded mean and looked scary when he took off  

[Jim Ratto]

thanks jim.
have a glass of red wine and some french cheese, that would look good on a poetry-night.

how about a tall cold beer and a double cheeseburger?

[nicolas]

Then, apart from the tranny, i build the right engine for me. It's doing fine in traffic, stays cool, and i can drive it to Bitburg, do low 15's and drive back home at 130 kmh.  It might not mean a lot to you guys, but it gives me a smile on the streets all the time.

i would like it. it is somewhat what i am after as well. what engine is it in what car?

interesting topic indeed! i guess you'd need to look for more of a backroad engine like jim referred to some time ago.

completely off-topic, but i met a guy that put a 635CSI engine in a late 70ies 3 series. now, that sounded mean and looked scary when he took off  

ah a very nice engine in a pretty light car. btw i love late 70's 3series. just look really cool. would love to have one.

thanks jim.
have a glass of red wine and some french cheese, that would look good on a poetry-night.

how about a tall cold beer and a double cheeseburger?

whatever makes you talk!

[Jim Ratto]

cool.
BMW 320i, 323i, 2002, E24 6 series, E28 5 series....all cool cars, done the old way, all BMW's that were built like iron.
I had a buddy I helped out with his 2002. He did his own port work on an E12 head, found a Schrick cam that was much like a K8, and bumped displacement to 2190cc, fed by 45DCOE's. You want to talk fast? He's now running an S14 M3 motor in the car.

Anyway, very cool topic. I like to think this was what it was all about in the beginning of the scene.

[nicolas]

Anyway, very cool topic. I like to think this was what it was all about in the beginning of the scene.

thanks, i thought so when i read your post, but couldn't put it in words then. and hush hush about those other beatifull germans or we might be banned to the offtopic section. 

[Harry/FDK]

Hi Nicolas, its a 2165 in a stripped out Mex - Bug.

(BTW, Let's keep Jim on a red wine and Cheese)

[louisb]

I would throw early British sports cars in that group. Bug eye sprites, MG TDs, Triumph spitfires. Not insanely fast. But they are light, you can build strong engines for them, your arse is inches off the ground, old style live axle suspension you can get out of shape on a curve, very minimal in nature. I loved my MG when I could get it to run. Get it side ways going around a curve then punch the throttle and get it going in the right direction again. Hitting a curvy road as fast as it would go, heal toe, tap the brakes to set the suspension then power through the curve. Of course, that was when I could get it to run. 

For my '67 I want a good driving engine that has enough umph to scare me occasionally. I am more interested in power under the curve than ultimate horse power. Now I will admit to occasionally getting "Fastest Car in the Valley" syndrome but I usually can pull out of it. I would rather it be a car I am happy to get in and drive, quickly, than something that is a chore no matter what time slip it turns in. Otherwise it will end up sitting in the garage and not out on the road where it belongs. Besides, if I want to go insanely fast, I will build a dedicated race car. (Besides as much as I love VWs, there are better cars to go really, really fast in.)

--louis

[mg]

Fast VW street car?
I've scared myself with 80hp Baja bugs and with street bugs in the rain.
I'd enjoy another bug with 180 hp with air cleaners and a nice muffler and a 5 speed close ratio box.
A close ratio like Beecher’s Porsche 5 speed with a long 1st and close gears in the rest the stack to effortlessly short shift from 0 to 60 as it paces all the newer import cars.
Given the choice fast on the street or the track?
Unlike the street, when you push a buddy at the track you'll only find faster/overtaking likeminded drivers in your mirrors.
Just consider it, from fast VW to fast Porsche is an easy transition.

 

[Gary Justus]

aren't Wink Mirrors great

[mg]

aren't Wink Mirrors great

Hi Gary,
Reading your quote just flashed an awesome image of your car in my mind.
Imho the wink is your car's signature mirror.
A Happy and healthy New Year to you!
Mike

[Dirk / DFL]

Oah! nice Video. Where`s the track? For me it looks a little like Zandfoort, but there are more dunes 

What kind of engine do you hav in the 911? Sounds like a 3.6 aircooled?

Reguards,
Dirk

[Peter]

Music to my ears...

[tikimadness]

Although it isn't a callooker,the idea of a fast streetcar remains.This has been my daily driver since 1993.Repainted in 1999 because it was 80,s purple but allways driven to all the meets incl bugjam and raced.

It had a 2.4 typ4 with 175 bhp so it's nice to play with most other cars.



I eventualy sold it in august because I needed funds to build the tikimadness,But I kept the engine

michael

[SOB/RFH]

One thing that comes to my mind when talking about fast street cars is the setting of goals and the achievement to get to them. I like the achievement part, or the trip to get there, as it contains a challenge. When it is done, it is done and new goals have to be set. So I am not in to driving fast but I set up three goals for my car.
1. It should do sub 13 ET:s on the strip
2. It should manage to give a mileage of less then 20 mpg
3. Cruise comfortable at 60 mph

So it took me some 5 years to accomplish it but it was years of fun and a learning curve. This is what I have accomplished so far:
1 12.35 @107 mph is the best ET to date but a 7.80 in the 1/8 mile on a non prepped track is promising…..
2. Mileage is 19.60 mpg doing 60 mph for about an 1 hour (non city traffic)
3. Comfort zone is best at 55 mph but it works ok up to 65-70 but then the sound is to evident for an elder men like me

So after trashing some camshafts my new goal is a little better ET, same milage and cruisning speed but I need to work on the sound and longevity of the camshaft (2 cams have gone flat). Also, it would be fine if the wife liked the comfort and essence of the speed and the sound of the Webers....but that is an other story

[tikimadness]

I had similar goals except for the 1/4mile times.I went to bugjam had fun on the strip and then drove to monaco to have a holiday with wife and friends.4500 km in 2 weeks and no trouble at all.

best 1/4 mile in that car was 14.3

sam engine in new car gets the time down to 13.6

michael

[ESH]

1. It should do sub 13 ET:s on the strip

Agreed. Back when I got into it a 13 at 100 + was the benchmark and that's what I aimed for with my car but now I'd quite like a 12 as that seems to be the new benchmark. Whatever though, in the terms of our branch of the car hobby a 'fast street car' has to have a quarter time or we might as well all get a German Looker or far worse still a Resto-Cal! 

2. It should manage to give a mileage of less then 20 mpg

Why? I get in excess of 26mpg cruising and though I haven't done a 12.35 I'd say that the art of the street is as much gas mileage as possible?

Shall we say MILEAGE IN EXCESS OF 24MPG?

3. Cruise comfortable at 60 mph

I prefer a car to be comfortable at 80. 

[nicolas]

nice one Mat

i think the 'rules' set out by DKPIII is a good reference as well. But time slips will not tell the whole story. i think a 1776 that does a 14 sec run is as worthy as a 2276 doing a 12...

but glad to hear this tread is on a roll!

[Bewitched666]

Hey Tikimadness,i liked the car when it was purple with the big bass speaker in the back and that you had to drive with sounddeathning earprotectors,

To me my experience with fast streetcar is like Jim mentioned,the sensation rather then a time slip of a 1/4 race.
That sensation was brought to me with my first 1679cc engine with all the works.
Having previously run in a stock 1300 beetle and then upgrading to a 1679cc back in the 80's with some 80-90 hp brought a smile to my face,especially when i installed a superdiff in the stock gearbox and i could do donuts and put some rubber with both wheels on the tarmac.

After that i wanted to go faster and so began the quest for speed and upgrading to bigger engines till i began dragracing which i still do on a semi pro level.

[SOB/RFH]

1. It should do sub 13 ET:s on the strip

Agreed. Back when I got into it a 13 at 100 + was the benchmark and that's what I aimed for with my car but now I'd quite like a 12 as that seems to be the new benchmark. Whatever though, in the terms of our branch of the car hobby a 'fast street car' has to have a quarter time or we might as well all get a German Looker or far worse still a Resto-Cal! 

2. It should manage to give a mileage of less then 20 mpg

Why? I get in excess of 26mpg cruising and though I haven't done a 12.35 I'd say that the art of the street is as much gas mileage as possible?

Shall we say MILEAGE IN EXCESS OF 24MPG?

3. Cruise comfortable at 60 mph

I prefer a car to be comfortable at 80. 

I think that the use of a EFI would effect gas milage in a positive way. The use of sound killing intake systems like they use on the German Look cars would also contribute to comfort. To me EFI has only one disadvantage and that is the price of the parts, too mouch compared to a regular 48 IDA. I went the route with enlarged 48 IDA:s back in 93 and that is what I have today. I might be narrow minded but I have not, so far, seen an attractive sulotion on a sound killing device that fits in to the small engine bay with a big motor/carbs so I guess what we have for the time being, that is it.

As I stated I need new goals. I might go for 10 seconds and N2O or I might go for better milage and comfort. But for the time being I put the priority on technology and knowledge when it comes to having a valvetrain that can live for a period of time that I am used too/or can tolerate.

To each and every one his own goals. I just wanted to state that having a fast street car can include having more than the few goals a race car can provide you with and the goals can be set by yourself based upon your own situation/aims/funds/friends/rules/regulations/racing ambitions/skills/knowledge/what ever there is that stops you from living your dreams with no boundries!!

Happiness is a Hot VW!!

[ESH]

I think that the use of a EFI would effect gas milage in a positive way. The use of sound killing intake systems like they use on the German Look cars would also contribute to comfort. To me EFI has only one disadvantage and that is the price of the parts, too mouch compared to a regular 48 IDA. I went the route with enlarged 48 IDA:s back in 93 and that is what I have today. I might be narrow minded but I have not, so far, seen an attractive sulotion on a sound killing device that fits in to the small engine bay with a big motor/carbs so I guess what we have for the time being, that is it.

As I stated I need new goals. I might go for 10 seconds and N2O or I might go for better milage and comfort. But for the time being I put the priority on technology and knowledge when it comes to having a valvetrain that can live for a period of time that I am used too/or can tolerate.

To each and every one his own goals. I just wanted to state that having a fast street car can include having more than the few goals a race car can provide you with and the goals can be set by yourself based upon your own situation/aims/funds/friends/rules/regulations/racing ambitions/skills/knowledge/what ever there is that stops you from living your dreams with no boundries!!

Happiness is a Hot VW!!

I think EFI is great, not for top end power so much as through the range power. I've seen dyno charts where EFI motors are very close to peak from 4K up. That said I went with IDA's with Version 1.2 of my engine. I had actually considered EFI for V1.2 but the cost was an issue, I got the IDA's in exchange for 2 peanuts and I needed at least a packet for one throttle body alone but that's not to say it's expensive as such. In addition I think EFI needs crank trigger ignition and the changes to the motor were minimal since it was only a (30,000 mile+) refresh and at the bottom all it got were bearings. There wasn't time to get everything balanced again. If you start from scratch I don't think there's a huge difference in cost between carburettors and EFI though? Everytime I buy jets it seems to cost me £100+ for some reason! When all is said and done though we started from scratch with an engine for my girlfriend and ended up opting for 48DRLA's and I'm sure the plan originally included EFI so I'm not sure what went wrong there.

I think the personal goal thing is very important, there's no point chasing someone elses goal posts. I've watched people who can kick further and more accurately than me and whilst I'd like to run their numbers I appreciate that I don't have the patience, knowledge or time to run a car on those numbers. If I'd have chased those numbers I'd have probably have been out of the game a long time ago so I guess I'lll stay happy playing a league or two down. I get a kick out of watching people prod at the outer limits for sure though. As nicolas says above a 1776 running a 14 is good comparison to a 2276 doing a 12 and both are relatively fast though ofcourse there are people pushing those displacements much quicker than that these days.

Whatever and however for sure, Happiness is a Hot VW!!

Good luck sorting that valve train and with where ever else that leads you to.

 

[Fastbrit]

As everyone gets hung up on quarter mile times, let's put all this in perspective... (most figures from Car & Driver, who are notoriously more optimistic than most other mags)

Aston Martin V-12 Vanquish – 12.9
Audi RS6 – 12.63
Bugatti Veyron – 10.8
BMW M3 – 13.6
Caterham Seven Superlight R – 13.0
Chevrolet Corvette ZO6 – 11.5
Dodge Charger SE 440ci – 15.2
Dodge Viper GTS – 12.2
Ferrari Enzo – 11.2
Ferrari F40 – 11.8
Ford GT – 11.6
Lamborghini Murcielago – 12.0
McLaren F1 – 11.7
Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG – 12.39
Oldsmobile 4-4-2 HO 455ci – 13.9
Plymouth ‘Cuda 440 – 14.0
Porsche 911 Turbo S – 11.9
Porsche 911 GT2 – 11.9
Shelby Cobra 427 S/C – 12.7
Volkswagen Super Beetle – 21.1

Bear in mind, these figures take all day at a track to achieve – they're not the result of a one-off blast down the strip. I reckon there are plenty of scalps there to be taken by a well-set-up Looker that runs consistent low-13s...

[The Ideaman]

Shelby Cobra 427 S/C – 12.7

This was probably @ 125mph.

[Udo]

My favoured street car is this next to mine . It is a 1302 model , painted like the old Salzburg Rallye car . I build him a 2,7 250 hp Type 4 engine . It has a Gene Berg 5 speed . So he can HAVE it ALL . 11's on the strip , 150 mph on the street and fun on the circuit track !!
At the race on the picture i pulled him to a 11.6 !!

Udo

[autobarnhauler]

Although it isn't a callooker,the idea of a fast streetcar remains.This has been my daily driver since 1993.Repainted in 1999 because it was 80,s purple but allways driven to all the meets incl bugjam and raced.

It had a 2.4 typ4 with 175 bhp so it's nice to play with most other cars.



I eventualy sold it in august because I needed funds to build the tikimadness,But I kept the engine

michael

nice car, i recall being taken 4 a spin in this badboy! back in 2005 on the streets of spa,belgium, man it was farst! think we toped out at about 120mph! i had a big smile on my face all day! regards terry