How did the old guys launch?

[Diederick/DVK]

We've talked about your the fast ETs in the 70ies before.
The Aronson/Holmes '63 running running low 13s with a 1679cc.
Sarge set quick times(13s too?) with his 1835cc.

It may have had a lot to do with the tyres (165R15 and 185R15) you ran, I suppose. But no matter what, how did you pull this off?

I'm guessing a lot has to do with how you launch!!
Anyway, I'm hoping to do my first few 1/4 mile attempts this summer with my yet-to-be-build 1915cc    And besides being intrigued by the fast ETs you guys ran, I can use some advice too. Like, how NOT to break my box... ...even though I run 205s for now

So... the floor is yours 

[Sarge]

Most important to use your hand brake to "load" the gearbox before blasting off the line (let the clutch out a bit while your staged with the hand brake pulled up a bit and your thumb holding down the button...you'll feel the car pull down in back).  Running 165 X 15's, I remember 20lbs of air pressure and coming off the line about 5000 rpm, seeing the tach jump to 7000 (tire spin) then lowering a few hundred rpm (grab) before climbing back to 7000 and the shift to second gear.  I know those 205/70's look cool and all, but I feel you'd be more prone to trans breakage with your engine size running big tires.  Just my $.02...there are lots of other opinions here, I'm sure!  Good luck

[cal-look.net]

oooh very interesting thread.

I have been down the strip twice only! I sucked!!! I did preload the gearbox but I was all over the place.

Best ET  - 13.88sec 96mph, felt like the car stood still in 1st and 2nd!


bring on the advice for us newbies!! rpm etc

my car should do 12s . . . apparently! 

[Diederick/DVK]

Loading the gearbox?!! Never of that, but I definitely will do that!!! Thanks Sarge!

I know those 205/70's look cool and all, but I feel you'd be more prone to trans breakage with your engine size running big tires.  Just my $.02...there are lots of other opinions here, I'm sure!  Good luck

Totally agree, they looks "alright" but I'd rather run like 185/70 or the 165s I donated to my brother   
I suggest I'm gonna burn the thread off of these this summer and then we'll see what tyres to choose next.


Still, with regard to the 205s. At what rpm should I launch to be quick and still safe?
Cos if you wouldn't even have told me this, I would just take off at 1,500... just to be safe etc.

[Rennsurfer]

The pre-load is your friend. Practice doing those like Sarge explained. I was taught that on my first car by an older driver.

[dyno don]

good and correct info by sarge(as always)....  if wanting to run a large tire /a stock weight flywheel will help the launch along with rpms above 3500 rpm...with a lightened fly the large tire tends to lead to poor launch unless you naill the throttle and hope you dont fall flat on your face...unless of course your talking more than 120 horsepower ...it seems ive seen a trend with large tire combos and drivers complaining about how soggy their car is upon launching and or lack of bottom end...especially with 3:88 ring and pinions...old school was always 4:37 for the best of both worlds...a friend of mine just bought a SWEET 65 with 150 horse with a 4:37 and stock gears that runs mid 13's all day long and is fun as heck to drive...165/15 in the rear however with a larger tire it would be not so fun to drive from stop light to stop light..but would enhance the overall driveability on the highway..and one must remember that when you run a larger tire with a stock gear ratio the cooling fan will turn slower possibly rendering your engine for problems down the road...combos are very important as too what cam/compression/weight of car/rear tire etc....this is a great subject and often overlooked or misunderstood...

[Rennsurfer]

Kickass advice, as usual, Don. I've never been a big fan of the larger rear tires for most of those reasons. I didn't realize the effect it has on the cooling fan. Thanks for the education.

[Sarge]

good and correct info by sarge(as always)....  if wanting to run a large tire /a stock weight flywheel will help the launch along with rpms above 3500 rpm...with a lightened fly the large tire tends to lead to poor launch unless you naill the throttle and hope you dont fall flat on your face...unless of course your talking more than 120 horsepower ...it seems ive seen a trend with large tire combos and drivers complaining about how soggy their car is upon launching and or lack of bottom end...especially with 3:88 ring and pinions...old school was always 4:37 for the best of both worlds...a friend of mine just bought a SWEET 65 with 150 horse with a 4:37 and stock gears that runs mid 13's all day long and is fun as heck to drive...165/15 in the rear however with a larger tire it would be not so fun to drive from stop light to stop light..but would enhance the overall driveability on the highway..and one must remember that when you run a larger tire with a stock gear ratio the cooling fan will turn slower possibly rendering your engine for problems down the road...combos are very important as too what cam/compression/weight of car/rear tire etc....this is a great subject and often overlooked or misunderstood...

COMBO...the key and often overlooked word!  The car I did all my racing in had a 4:37 ring and pinion, too.  Coupled with short tires, the car launched pretty damn good.  I had some of the first close ratio gears back then, too and the car would go through the lights at close to 7000 rpm.  The 27 mile drive on the freeway to the track was hell...60mph = 4000rpm and intense noise (lack of headlinner and upholstery ).  I spent time with the combo on the sandrail, too....started with a light flywheel like everyone says to do.  Then, I bumped into somebody who suggested the car would launch better with a heavy (almost stock weight) flywheel...BIG improvement.  Bottom line here is don't be afraid to work with what you've got...spend some time "refining" your combo before moving on to something bigger or better.

[Rennsurfer]

.started with a light flywheel like everyone says to do. Then, I bumped into somebody who suggested the car would launch better with a heavy (almost stock weight) flywheel...BIG improvement. 

YES! I've never been a fan of lightened flywheels. Only slightly less than stock. Better hill climbing capabilities, also. Well, at least in theory.

[alfie the monster]

Old guys seen launching earlier today!!!!!


















Sorry I couldn't resist 

[Jim Ratto]

I love my 4.37 R/P.

But I have heard of and experienced the ol' crunch-a-rama too. But in my case, it was bound to happen, as I was
1. learning to launch car on MH slicks (Larry and I nicknamed them Slicks of Doom)
2. Never could get the feel right with the ebrake thing
3. the said tranny was actually lent to me (hence Murphy's law)
4. aren't we all a bit viscous when we get in the staging lanes? 

I'd love to get some 185's under my rear fenders on my '67 and get a little more "slide" under it, like when I ran my P3's

a topic for another post though....  great adivce and a great question from Dieds! 

[Jim Ratto]

PS....everybody asks "how did those small cc hippy guys from the 70's run so fast back then?" 

how much do you wan to bet that if they stuffed some big 205/70 steamrollers under there that they would have bogged down and netted 15 sec e.t.'s?

[Diederick/DVK]

So, I'm definitely learning things here.
Apart from needing another gearbox than my 1500 semi-long (love the 4th gear though), I need smaller rear tyres, and a not so light flywheel...
I love the sound of a light flywheel. And believe it or not, I often hear my yet-to-be-build engine rev, when I'm cycling to uni (like a true dutchman). But well, if I can reap the benefits of a heavier flywheel than I will.

What weight would you suggest? I often read 5.5lbs...

[Diederick/DVK]

how much do you want to bet that if they stuffed some big 205/70 steamrollers under there that they would have bogged down and netted 15 sec e.t.'s?

     

[louisb]

Great information. Interesting thoughts on the flywheel weight and tire size.

--louis

[Zach Gomulka]

The Aronson/Holmes '63 running running low 13s with a 1679cc.

Think it was low 14's...

Cool topic though!

I think a big part of it was that alot of these guys drove their car every day... and they drove the snot out of it! More seat time equals a quicker ET, weather you are on a racetrack or not. Just getting to know your car...

Edit: my old '67 with a 1600 ran 14.8's.... with 205/70's and a 4.12, 3.80, 2.06, 1.48, 1.04. But I drove it every damn day, and HARD!

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

PS....everybody asks "how did those small cc hippy guys from the 70's run so fast back then?" 

how much do you wan to bet that if they stuffed some big 205/70 steamrollers under there that they would have bogged down and netted 15 sec e.t.'s?

Never Needed Big Tires Back Then Most Guys Ran a 4:37 trans with a 1:58 3rd and 1:21  4th Running those 1679 motors threw the lights @ 7000 in 4th with a W 120 Engle and 40x35 round port non Welded Heads topped with a pair of IDA's and a Singe Qp Muffler Like Dyno Said From Light to light they are a Blast  and Ran low to mid 13's all day long  as far as Pre Loading with the E Brake I drilled an 1/8 hole threw the top of the E brake hande and button and used a small Pin in the hole to keep the button pushed in during Racing, I have Seen A Lot of Guys  Pulling up the E Brake at the Line  the Tree Comes Down  And The E Brake is On so much for cutting a good light

[Jim Ratto]

PS....everybody asks "how did those small cc hippy guys from the 70's run so fast back then?" 

how much do you wan to bet that if they stuffed some big 205/70 steamrollers under there that they would have bogged down and netted 15 sec e.t.'s?

Never Needed Big Tires Back Then Most Guys Ran a 4:37 trans with a 1:58 3rd and 1:21  4th Running those 1679 motors threw the lights @ 7000 in 4th with a W 120 Engle and 40x35 round port non Welded Heads topped with a pair of IDA's and a Singe Qp Muffler Like Dyno Said From Light to light they are a Blast  and Ran low to mid 13's all day long  as far as Pre Loading with the E Brake I drilled an 1/8 hole threw the top of the E brake hande and button and used a small Pin in the hole to keep the button pushed in during Racing, I have Seen A Lot of Guys  Pulling up the E Brake at the Line  the Tree Comes Down  And The E Brake is On so much for cutting a good light

been there done that.... killing a good light leaving handbrake on!!
or there was the time I left the tree in THIRD GEAR 

[Jason Foster]

intense noise (lack of headlinner and upholstery ). 


    nice......



                       

[Jason Foster]

also for pre loading I use a small piece of duct tape to keep the button depressed at the track.

[cal-look.net]

so . . .

and I may embarrass myself here but . . .

what is a line lock for, apart from burnouts?!


. . . talk about all the gear and no idea

[beetletom]

Old guys seen launching earlier today!!!!!


















Sorry I couldn't resist 

 

[nicolas]

burnouts and burnouts

but they are not a staging brake as the linelock is locking the front tires.

i have to get into that preloading thing, but from my first and only experience it is a all very confusing the first times. i was so excited that i didn't know what to do first, all the otherwise easy and normal things all felt weird. i was so nervous. but the best thing ever, that is why i want a better engine and can play some more with it as i am hooked.

on transmissions: i run a 4.12 standard trans and that works OK for a car that doesn't go over 5500 rpm. it is only a big gap between 2nd and 3th and the 4th is never used. i had to shift right on the 1/4 mile mark to 4th gear. but close ratios would be better for dragracing. but it is fun enough with 3 at the moment. that is all in a heavy type3 with a 1641 engine. it ran 17's but could do better with a better driver... 
anyway i am thinking of getting a 4.37 trans and a diff and add to that a torquey 1776 and things must improve a bit. of course highwaycruising will suffer, but i drive like an old man on the streets where others are. you know the whole safety issue...
and i have 165 tires and they work great. got to perform a burnout and they grip enough for a smaller engine. plus they are small enough to accelerate faster as the bigger 215/65 tires.

right now i hope i can get all the work done before 20th of april to cruise the bugtour or otherwise EBI2.

[speedwell]

nobody want a pair of 215/65 tyres  ..................................

[Jim Ratto]

Speedwell, you must have some pics of a young, tough Sarge racing his '63 somewhere right? Where they at, bro?

[speedwell]

Speedwell, you must have some pics of a young, tough Sarge racing his '63 somewhere right? Where they at, bro?

sure here we go 

[Sarge]

Looks like another 19 second pass to me

[Rennsurfer]

Looks like another 19 second pass to me

(coughB.S.cough)

Modesty shall get you nowhere, Sir.

 

[javabug]

Dig the two guys sitting on the railing!  Ah, they're safe, only Volkswagens racing...

[Bewitched666]

Died with the combo you're going to build and the amount of hp you're expecting you can run with a lightened flywheel i bet.
I would go with a smaller diameter tire like the 185/195 and put a superdiff at least in your box if you wanna launch good.

Otherwise on the 12th of april at you dvk meeting i can give you some pointers of how i do it