Wings/aerofoils Are they really needed? and if so when?

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
First I will admit that I have not read the entire thread closely, only scanned it. So if i repeat what someone else have said, I appologize.

That said, I did a lot of testing on this subject back in the early 90ies. - Both when we were racing at Avon and more on fast street cars.
Our race car was a bit odd, being a 1303 with a 1200 flip front and front beam. The fastest we ever went was 11,21 with a big shot of NOS. We had  a Scat racing wing attached to the rear. (I seem to remember that they were the ones that sold them anyway) It was mounted under the rear window. It was aboiut 12" long ans had a "lip" on the rear. It also had vertical side pieces that was approx 6" tall and narrowing down to about 2" to the rear of the wing. It sat in an angle of about 15 degrees. The weight of the car was 640 kg w.o. driver.

Now at Avon there was often some sidewinds at the final 100 yards of the quater, because the dirt wall ended there. (I think they have changed that now) Many of the faster cars had stability problems when passing that point. We never had that, apart from one time where we had the wing off because of some repair. And Carsten who drove the car said that it felt squirrely when letting off the throttle. We put the wing back on and it was back to normal. Another thing was, that there was a big difference in "efficiency" of the wing, compared to the angle of the wing. 12 degrees was wirtually worthless. 15 degrees gave a significant difference. We had a relatively low front part on the flipfront, allowing less air under the car. That was made because I had some experience from fast street cars with a Kamei or Kamei style front spoiler, that got way more high speed stability with these on. We experimented somewhat with front wheel adjustment in all 3 angles. But I have fogotten how we ended up in numbers. I do remember that we had 5,5 degree caster on it.

The total set up of the wheels front and rear has a lot to do with all over stabilty. Much mare than most people realize.

Now, how much is needed, and when? That is the big question. As we have seen over and over again, beetles nowadays often have trap speeds around 120 mph. and gets away with it. But going from 120 to say 140 mph or more makes a huuuge difference. Then you really have to begin working with the airflow around the car.
From my point of view, I would seriusly begin to think of a front spoiler when hitting speeds at or above 115 mph. I saw a test many years back from Kamei, that showed just how much more weight was kept on the wheels both front and rear simply by adding their spoiler. I forgot the numbers, but do remember that It was a signifincant number at 120 mph. - Russ Fellows`  front spoiler migh not be the prettiest in the hood, but I´m sure it does what it was intended for.

Another thing that was very clear on street cars was, that with the front spoiler the car got much more steady in crosswinds. Especially above 70 mph. To the point of getting very close to front engined cars.

Hope this helps in  shedding more light on the subject.
T

[Mike Lawless]

over the finish line 145.68 mph

145! what times were you running?

10.10 with a 1.68 60ft, going to be working real hard on the 60 ft at night of fire

At 145mph, you got mid nine second potential there.

[Peter Shattock]

I'm not sure if you can make much of this, but the old school jumper finally got it and Ian C, Lee M and I had a bit of a comedy moment filming the Woolly Bug! The first link (assuming it works my first time at this) is with no wing but as you can see the car has a raised deck lid which will obviously have an effect, the second is with a bit of an effort at a sort of "German look wing" and the third is with a helper.

I'm sure we need to have another go on a road with less traffic on a dry day at higher speed as the filming was difficult to get close enough on a busy road and with hindsight we could have done with thicker wool to make it easy to see but one thing that was a surprise was the effect of the rear window rubber!

I'm not sure what people made of the cars new fashion accessories but it seamed to amuse most!

http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=WoolyBug004.flv

http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=WoolyBug005.flv

http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=WoolyBug009.flv

Peter

[AntLockyer]

That last one is quite a difference isn't it? I presume by the fact the wool is limp that you have create a lower pressure area?

[John Maher]

I'm not sure if you can make much of this, but the old school jumper finally got it and Ian C, Lee M and I had a bit of a comedy moment filming the Woolly Bug! The first link (assuming it works my first time at this) is with no wing but as you can see the car has a raised deck lid which will obviously have an effect, the second is with a bit of an effort at a sort of "German look wing" and the third is with a helper.

Neat!!

Difficult to make out exactly what's going on in the web movies (assume original footage is clearer?) but there appear to be different things going on in each test...

Looks like the Herod Helper style wing creates more turbulence around the rear window than without??
Roof mounted lip spoiler looks like it may be better (from an aerodynamics viewpoint)
Weird stuff going on around the rear light unit!

Wonder how far down the rear of the car air would stay attached if the engine lid was fully closed?
Maybe the propped open lid is contributing to turbulence around the rear light housing?

See.... the problem with this stuff is you end up with more questions than answers 

[Peter Shattock]

Hi John,

We came to the same conclusion about there being more questions than answers, when we started to try and think about it, we all got very confused and decided that we better put the kettle on and have a bit of cake!

As you suggest, there are a few things going on which are a unexplained, but I think we need to have another go with some more serious wool, not so much school kids cardigan, but more fisherman’s jumper (they must do a god line in big woolly jumpers in your neck of the woods), so the results show up a bit better on film (although the original clips are better). If I'm feeling up to the inevitable piss taking, I might have a go at the track some time next year, so the speed is more realistic, although the filming might prove to be a challenge.

I'm not sure what there is to gain from this, for me though, as I'm not about to change the look of the car with some great big strap on...... but I hope it’s of some interest to others, even if it’s just for the comedy value.

So I think I'll go for plan B for 2009. That class A drug habit you were talking about, should save some weight and it sounds much cheaper than the Titanium, Magnesium and Inconol!

Hope to see you at the track this year, don't for get your jumper, we might need it! 
 

[Peter]

Hi Peter,
All I can say is that i LOOOOOVVE your car,
with or without wool!

[ESH]

... I'm not sure if you can make much of this, but the old school jumper finally got it ...

It was a school jumper you say? You sure it wasn't something that you got for Christmas?   

[Peter Shattock]

Thanks ruff, "Woollook" it could be the new thing for 2009, what do you recon we could be onto a new thing? That said I went for a razz round yesterday, to blow out the Christmas cobwebs and felt a lot less self consensus without the wool!

Nice Mat, fortunately this Christmas's knitwere selection was restricted to socks!

Happy New Year, roll on warm weather and sunshine!

[richie]

Well have been thinking about this on a fairly regular basis,got this idea from Der express and as my car needed a new rear apron anyway thought i would try it,managed to get this one from Ppomona last weekend for $35 so perfect for my butchery

I have added a couple of other little changes to the car and am still looking at ways to get air out from underneath more easily

cheers richie

[JS]

Making room for wheelie bars...? 

[BeetleBug]

Nice work!

[ESH]

... Making room for wheelie bars ...

I was going to say something but that's probably how rumours start!

   

[nicolas]

oh nice
even if don't own a bug. that is how i would make the apron on my car. it looks good too. did you use the original cutouts as starting point. i figured i would have made the cutout wider... but this looks really nice.

!

... Making room for wheelie bars ...

I was going to say something but that's probably how rumours start!

   

so are you fitting wheelybars?





repeat the lie, that makes it true. 

[Jon]

I knew I was starting a trend when a late night trash resulted in a rear apron like this on "the fieldcar"....

But It got me thinking, what would this look like if you did it right... now I know, and I like it big time in combination with the 67 lid, it sort of has the same design language as the lid.

In your case, the metal you cut away is whats stopping you from flipping over in the SCC 2008 movie...  now is that a really cleaver move, or a even better idea? 

[Prowagen]

Great video's Peter! Good to see, even if it makes more questions than answers.

[Patte]

Nice.
My fasty´s apron looks like that,perfect for wheeliebars and chute
and with your new engine im sure you are gonna need to join the sixwheelers
that brakes with some type of umbrellas

[richie]

Making room for wheelie bars...? 

    No chance,


not on this car anyway  

Oh,is that how rumours start


Patte,didnt think about the chute  mount but it does look like it will make it easier


cheers richie

[nicolas]

Making room for wheelie bars...? 

    I'LL DO IT!!!


on this car VERY SOON anyway  

Oh,is that how rumours start


Patte,didnt think about the chute  mount but it does look like it will make it easier


cheers richie

 

[richie]

Well I made several changes over the last couple of months but am still not sure if they helped or not,but it sure is stable at 150+mph,on my last pass weekend I was still on it after the finish line and going on the rpm recall in the ECU it went 155ishmph before i got of the go pedal,this is a view from Pat Mcdermotts fiat ont eh 9.33/149mph run and it looks good to my untrained eye



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1jy2BC3BIr8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/1jy2BC3BIr8</a>


cheers richie,uk

[Zach Gomulka]

That video is fucking bonkers. I can't even begin to imagine going that fast side by side with another car. Especially seeing how much work Pat is doing to keep the thing on the straight and narrow!!

[Martin]

Looks good,

You can see the front end just dip down (may be as you come off the power) if anything the rear end looks a little bouncy? maybe needs a little more rebound control.

just a thought.



Martin

[richie]

Looks good,

You can see the front end just dip down (may be as you come off the power) if anything the rear end looks a little bouncy? maybe needs a little more rebound control.

just a thought.



Martin

I had a few people come by after that run with obsevations on it being a little bouncy in 4th,I actually softened it up next pass as i felt it was to stiff,but only got one more pass which wasnt conclusive  

cheers richie,uk

[Fiatdude]

Now on Fiat 600 when they road race them (especially in ABARTH trim) they prop open the rear deck flat and the have a really cool looking front piece they attach out front -- They have rally lights mounted on this one.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/P2gsTvP1pVI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/P2gsTvP1pVI</a>

Check out some more of the videos on the bottom and you will see the struts holding the lid up better --- Cheap rear spoiler huh!!!!!

[Fiatdude]

Looks good,

You can see the front end just dip down (may be as you come off the power) if anything the rear end looks a little bouncy? maybe needs a little more rebound control.

just a thought.



Martin

I had a few people come by after that run with obsevations on it being a little bouncy in 4th,I actually softened it up next pass as i felt it was to stiff,but only got one more pass which wasnt conclusive  

cheers richie,uk

Pat's car and Jon Scheers' car really started behaving when they went to the hardest settings on the shocks

[Martin]

Looks good,

You can see the front end just dip down (may be as you come off the power) if anything the rear end looks a little bouncy? maybe needs a little more rebound control.

just a thought.



Martin

I had a few people come by after that run with obsevations on it being a little bouncy in 4th,I actually softened it up next pass as i felt it was to stiff,but only got one more pass which wasnt conclusive  

cheers richie,uk

Are you on single adjustable shocks? as the compression looks like its working for you, just not the rebound?

You'll be able to adjust the rebound with a double adjustable shock. This would help the control further down the track...



Martin

[richie]

Looks good,

You can see the front end just dip down (may be as you come off the power) if anything the rear end looks a little bouncy? maybe needs a little more rebound control.

just a thought.



Martin

I had a few people come by after that run with obsevations on it being a little bouncy in 4th,I actually softened it up next pass as i felt it was to stiff,but only got one more pass which wasnt conclusive  

cheers richie,uk

Are you on single adjustable shocks? as the compression looks like its working for you, just not the rebound?

You'll be able to adjust the rebound with a double adjustable shock. This would help the control further down the track...



Martin

Just singles,its only a simple street car,nothing fancy here


cheers richie,uk

[Martin]

ok, but you dont want that bounce developing into a hop!. not for the price of a pair of shocks anyways.


good luck.



Martin

[Martin]

Just been going over the data from the weekend,

It would seam that the whole car is starting to lift, more so at the front end. 

Going to try a front air dam and splitter first, might even have to spalsh out on a stint in the wind tunnell


Martin

[richie]

Just been going over the data from the weekend,

It would seam that the whole car is starting to lift, more so at the front end. 

Going to try a front air dam and splitter first, might even have to spalsh out on a stint in the wind tunnell


Martin

Its funny you drag this post back up,I was thinking of doing the same,after driving the EBI car on a bumpy track and feeling no negative issues at 130ish mph and seeing that Matt Keene survived unscathed at similar MPH this weekend first time out in a new car both without any aero devices I am still not convinced that any off the shelf stuff helps.

 Given that Hector Urias and Frank Estradas cars dont have any frontal aero devices and seem to manage at 160 mph respectively what is happening under your car to make it so unstable?

Is it possible the larger and taller rear tyres you use are causing some strange problem? with that tall a tyre you just cant get it as low as someone using a 26 inch tall tyre and that upsets the balance of the car more?  just thinking aloud really


cheers richie,uk