Wings/aerofoils Are they really needed? and if so when?

[richie]

This is something that I have thought about alot of recent times.When i was first getting into making my Cab go quicker the general info seemed to be at 100mph you needed some kind of device to break up the air over the back of the car or you would crash!!
Now as we have seen in recent years this is totally untrue and got me to thinking that maybe its the weight of the vehicle that is critical not the shape?
For example you have several cars running low 11s and high 10s with or without power adders,Paul Bate,Joe Gallagher,Martin[boom boom]Greaves,Anders Roman,Petter Carlberg,Arto Varta .We have several mid to low 12s cars,jason Rew,Frank Hofmann,Greg bishop,Pete Shattock,Phil West,Steve young,Andy Marriot etc  Then the low 10 & 9sec cars,Jussi Jyranko,Martin Taylor,myself,Jyrki Laune and particularly the Skinne brothers car,none of which run any aerodynamic device that I know of.

Now the common theme i see here all these cars are not crisp packet or potato chip cars,they are heavy compared to the similar performance cars from the 80s/90s  so do we really need the wings/spoilers/aerofoils?or do people just copy what everyone else is doing?

Looking at it from here,particularly with what the skinne car just did I have to say No they arent needed,so what do you all think?
anyone tried the same combo with and without? have any or the common designs been anywhere near a wind tunnel? or similar means of testing to see if they actual improve anything?


cheers richie

[BeetleBug]

I just want to mention that the Skinne beetle did have a wing when it did the 9.26 run... mounted just to check if there was any difference. The driver said that the car did feel a bit more stable but they had also mounted 8" DOT slicks. Still he had to let go of the gas in 4th because he felt the car started to drift. Also remember that the Skinne beetle use R track tires in the front.

Best rgs
BB

[benssp]

I would of thought there wouldn't be much air flowing down the back of a bug when your travelling 100+. Big Pete has put a chopped bug in a wind tunnel at a university before.think bernie uses his to stop crap going down the carbs and piece of mind. anyone running wings notice the difference?

[richie]

I just want to mention that the Skinne beetle did have a wing when it did the 9.26 run... mounted just to check if there was any difference. The driver said that the car did feel a bit more stable but they had also mounted 8" DOT slicks. Still he had to let go of the gas in 4th because he felt the car started to drift. Also remember that the Skinne beetle use R track tires in the front.

Best rgs
BB

Kalle,was it a wing that followed the car like is normally used on a bug or stood off from the car in the clean air?

cheers richie

[richie]

Big Pete has put a chopped bug in a wind tunnel at a university before.

To see why it ran so hot but it didnt have a wing

cheers richie

Wings are for birds

[judgie]

somthing i prob have more experamce than most on.
i use the wing and front splitter on my race car and it makes a huge differance for what i do, took just over 6 seconds of a run up prescott hill climb which is under a mile long.
running at north wield i removed the wing for one run, shutting of at the top end @ 96mph the car felt very unstable and i bolted the wing stright back on.

rear wing is twin element carbon from a f3 lola and the front splitter is alloy with a ply base.
not sure how it would affect flat screen cars as i have not run one with this set up but the 03 responds very well to some lift reduction. have also noticed that the rear wing does not have any affect on my 1/4 times or termanil speeds.
cheers rob

[BeetleBug]

I just want to mention that the Skinne beetle did have a wing when it did the 9.26 run... mounted just to check if there was any difference. The driver said that the car did feel a bit more stable but they had also mounted 8" DOT slicks. Still he had to let go of the gas in 4th because he felt the car started to drift. Also remember that the Skinne beetle use R track tires in the front.

Best rgs
BB

Kalle,was it a wing that followed the car like is normally used on a bug or stood off from the car in the clean air?

cheers richie

Like a ordinary wing a la Lummus and Tekken..

[ian c]

i noticed a difference at very , very high speeds when fitted to my road car ..

i ended up having to fit a small one on the front to balance it out , and stop it feeling like i was doing an 160mph wheelie .

i dont understand earodynamics , but iirc mines a spoiler , and not a wing ??

an 100,000 lb 737 can take off at less speed than i've done , and that has wings .

i think mine might be a spoiler because it is an upside-down wing

what i'm saying is ,,, i dont know what i'm saying 

but it made a big difference to my car , but in a BAD way .
the front one made a small diference that brought it alll back together .

[Martin]

Love this Subject!

I too have been concidering such a dilema Richie.

I have spoken to MIRA the wind tunnal people about this so called problem, and there reply was very long and very helpfull.

with my perticulare setup they were very concerned that it it went past 150 mph then it would become airborn, now that im running data logging on the suspention you can see that the car is actualy starting to lift at the top end of the track. so it would seam that they are correct.

they also let me told me that if i can stop the air going underneath the car then lift forces are greatley reduced, which got me talking to Russ Fellows about his front air dam. now his car isnt as low as mine, but he did say that the car 'feels' planted withthe airdam, and with out its a little sketchy. now i know he's as been past the 150mph mark in his car using the apropriat M56 test track and says the car feels fine.

Now this is all well and good saying it 'feels' ok, but i like facts so. im going to put my car in the MIRA wind tunnal, now this isnt cheap, but im am working on a deal and its down to me getting enough cash together to pay for it.

the car that i know of that have been in the tunnal are Wayne saunders Focus, and the PT bruser. the Focus suffered a little instability at 150 mark, but ford paid for it to go in there tunnal in germany and they fixed it with gurni flap, along with some other little tweeks, they actualy reduced the drag of the car so ineffect it needed less power to go just as fast. The PT Bruser was another car that suffered bad aerodynamics, In the tunnal they found that the car was actualy lifting more at the back than it was at the front, so in effect making it feel like the rear was doing the steering. the also found that the peddle box in the engine compartment was creating lift on one side of the car!. next time you see it a the track take a look at the front of it, and you'll 'see' the fixes they did to it. now the car lifts, but its the same on both axles, they too also reduced its drag and the car went its fastest as soon as it got back onto the track. They had limitations in there body mods due to there sponsorship.

getting back to beetles, yes i think the weight of the cars (mine) is helping it become more stable, but i think its just moved the enevitable further up the MPH scale. now mine 'feels' spot on at 140 even with the car starting to lift.

one good thing about the MIRA deal is that the guys come up from Mira and advise on the car from the start, they you make the bits, and stick them on with tape, the you put the 'finished' car in the tunnal and as the day goes on you take bits off one by one untill you end up with the car bare of aero aids, then they tell you which bits to fit. they can also tell you how much Hp it will take to puch the car through the air.


as soon as i have my car done, It will be shared with anyone who wants to know, all in the aid of making our cars safer, so we can push them harder and harder.


Martin.

[benssp]

could you reduce the lift just by shifting the weight around in the car so you have more up front, I.e battery msd box

[Martin]

could you reduce the lift just by shifting the weight around in the car so you have more up front, I.e battery msd box

you can but your not sorting out the aerodynamic fauts, your just putting it off

[Prowagen]

What a great thread!
I would presume it must effect the air having a wing as we all know if your decklid is stood off at the bottom this creates a vacuum and  hot air is sucked out of the engine bay. Maybe your on to something with lighter cars lots of the racers in the USA run wings on full chassis cars, but then also is this just the make things look nice as alot of bugs run airboxes to due to the engine being larger raised etc.

I know it sounds shallow but I think wings look great on some cars and that is enough of a reason to run them! As long as they are not actually having an adverse effect!

If you look at all the top NHRA stuff, whether it be funny car, pro mod or pro stock all the cars have wings. Admittedly most of these are front engined.

Rob.

[Lids]

Wasn't the old Herrod Helper design, meant to be tested?  It was said to work!  Let me find the acticle...SPEEDWELL

[Martin]

What a great thread!
I would presume it must effect the air having a wing as we all know if your decklid is stood off at the bottom this creates a vacuum and  hot air is sucked out of the engine bay. Maybe your on to something with lighter cars lots of the racers in the USA run wings on full chassis cars, but then also is this just the make things look nice as alot of bugs run airboxes to due to the engine being larger raised etc.

I know it sounds shallow but I think wings look great on some cars and that is enough of a reason to run them! As long as they are not actually having an adverse effect!

If you look at all the top NHRA stuff, whether it be funny car, pro mod or pro stock all the cars have wings. Admittedly most of these are front engined.

Rob.

reminds me of a conversation with Jimmy Larson, we asked him if the rear wing worked? his reply, shit its only there to cover the motor!

[Martin Greaves]

I feel that the most important part of the wing is the side part of it. This helps the car to go straight as for the top part that for putting your cups of tea on at the track.

[Steve D.]

Kris Lauffer has gone pretty quick in his convertible without any wings, flaps, rudders-  Maybe cabs don't have the same aero problems that a full roof car does.

That said... Mike Scott has also gone really fast in his silver oval window without any aero "fixes" either- but he also has giant wide porsche wheels/tires on the front.

[Paul Bate]

Hello Richie

Ot O now you've done it LOL !
IRS and a heavy car seem to be much more stable and if ya got the right brakes you can make the first exit 

Paul B

1973lbs 11.02 @ the Open Sport Nationals roll on the Hot Rod Drags

[richie]

Kris Lauffer has gone pretty quick in his convertible without any wings, flaps, rudders-  Maybe cabs don't have the same aero problems that a full roof car does.

That said... Mike Scott has also gone really fast in his silver oval window without any aero "fixes" either- but he also has giant wide porsche wheels/tires on the front.

Steve,funnily enough I didnt mention Kris because of the unique shape of a cab without roof,i am sure my own car disturbs the air enough to alter any negative effects a regular sedan has,wether i run roof up,down or off it seems to make no difference  And I thought about Mike Scott but couldnt remeber his name

[richie]

somthing i prob have more experamce than most on.
i use the wing and front splitter on my race car and it makes a huge differance for what i do, took just over 6 seconds of a run up prescott hill climb which is under a mile long.
running at north wield i removed the wing for one run, shutting of at the top end @ 96mph the car felt very unstable and i bolted the wing stright back on.

rear wing is twin element carbon from a f3 lola and the front splitter is alloy with a ply base.
not sure how it would affect flat screen cars as i have not run one with this set up but the 03 responds very well to some lift reduction. have also noticed that the rear wing does not have any affect on my 1/4 times or termanil speeds.
cheers rob

Rob,obviously what you are trying to do is totally different,my car is set up to have as little downforce/weight over the front wheels at the top end as possible and I think you proberly have a front rear combo thats works well together

cheers richie

[richie]

What a great thread!
I would presume it must effect the air having a wing as we all know if your decklid is stood off at the bottom this creates a vacuum and  hot air is sucked out of the engine bay.



 as alot of bugs run airboxes to due to the engine being larger raised etc.



I know it sounds shallow but I think wings look great on some cars and that is enough of a reason to run them!

Rob.

Rob I am not sure about your first point as the decklid stood off at the bottom allows idas to fit without cutting the velocity stack on number 2 and also allows extra air in to make up for the carbs/engine robbing cooling air to the fan,

number 2 is what I fear,that they fit them purely for looks and becaue there rules state that the engine has to be covered/sealed in


number 3 !!! what can I say,i hate the look of a wing on the clean lines of a bug,Mr taylors car looks so much better now he removed that thing from it

cheers richei

[ian c]

richie
would it be in your interest to make the car more "slippy" ??

flat bottomed , side skirts etc to lower the drag ?

btw , what does that "support" comment mean in your sig.
is it refering to women wearing bras ?

[richie]

Wasn't the old Herrod Helper design, meant to be tested?  It was said to work!  Let me find the acticle...SPEEDWELL

Dont believe the hype  

You ever heard of anyone claiming there product doesnt work?

chers richie

[richie]

richie
would it be in your interest to make the car more "slippy" ??

flat bottomed , side skirts etc to lower the drag ?

btw , what does that "support" comment mean in your sig.
is it refering to women wearing bras ?

Ian,I am not sure,it seems to me that if we break up the natural airflow on a bug its alot safer,most of th cars in my original post have the decklid stood off at the top and my observations point to this have a positive effect on stability,just wondering what others have found/seen

cheers richie

And no it has nothing to do with Bras

[andy M.]

The big killer always seems to be backing of at the top end with the resultant unloading of the rear suspension, especially combined with a cross wind. Unfortunately the cars we have chosen to race are not as ideally suited to the far end of the track as they are to the start line.  Having said that, we wouldn't do it if we didn't get a bit frightened every now and again!

Andy

PS didn't little pete have a herrod helper on his car for a bit, not sure whether he rated it or not?

[richie]

The big killer always seems to be backing of at the top end with the resultant unloading of the rear suspension, especially combined with a cross wind. Unfortunately the cars we have chosen to race are not as ideally suited to the far end of the track as they are to the start line.  Having said that, we wouldn't do it if we didn't get a bit frightened every now and again!

Andy

PS didn't little pete have a herrod helper on his car for a bit, not sure whether he rated it or not?

Andy he did,but now he doesnt,maybe it weighed to much    But really i am unsure why he removed it

[ian c]

iirc
to get same speed with less power , or more speed with same power ... you need the front and sides as slippy as poss , and disrupted air at the back .

i guess a nose-down , bumper-less car has the front sorted , and the raised lid is doing the stuff at the back ?

downforce robs speed .....
but would help with wieght transfer on the lift off ??

[Lids]

wouldn't the combination of a smooth underside to the car, and a rear wing help to lift the front wheels at speed.  Hence why beetles crash at the top end of a track when there is a cross wind?  I think a front spoiler would aid traction more than a rear wing.  But Richie you have a rear wing covered in canvas anyway.  What about welding strips along the length of the floorpan to help spped up the airflow.

For traction you want slow speed over the car and fast speed under the car.

A beetle has a similar profile to that of an airplane wing, hence at high speed the car will lift!

[ian c]

porsches have been flat bottomed girls since 1989 ....

a front splitter will force the front end down , this wouldnt help the rear raising on lift-off or traction ?

[andy M.]

Wasn't here a whole load of experiments done back in the 60's with bloody great wings and vertical stabilisers hung of the back of a bug?  Didn't work worth a damn and looked very silly. But here was some interesting talk about the centre of pressure on a bug being well behind the car due to it's curves. A squareback would be a better shape to start with but all that titanium needed to get the weight down would even make pete blanche!

andy

[ESH]

Golf balls!