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Author Topic: 2267cc cam question  (Read 3900 times)
patrick
Newbie
*
Posts: 6



« on: October 12, 2008, 19:54:28 pm »

Hello,

I am planning to build a 2276cc engine for my 59 cal-look beetle. It has to be reliable. Torque en horsepower is also important. What do you think of this combination?? Suggestions are welcome. My biggest question is which cam to use.

new as41 case
balanced 4340 82 crankshaft
h-beam rods with 2000arp bolts
chromoly 4130 8 dowel 12.5 lbs flywheel
1.4 pouter rockers
camshaft  who can help me??? FK46??
straight cut gears
26mm shadek oil pump
deep sump
chromoly head studs 8mm
4110 chromoly racing push rods
steve tims stage 2 heads 42x37
48ida weber
stage 1 kennedy clutch

compression 9.5:1
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 19:58:53 pm by patrick » Logged
67worshipper
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 727



« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 21:19:29 pm »

theres lots of alternatives.whats your suggested usage for it?
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vw hot rod heaven
leec
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2543


« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 15:54:00 pm »

FK87, I have and i love it!
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Peter
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1299



« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 17:46:56 pm »

Web 86c,
but i only have my 1200 to compare it too Grin
it pulls much harder
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Neil Davies
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3429



« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 10:57:58 am »

FK87, I have and i love it!


Lee, were you at Shakespeare County at the weekend? If so, I'm liking the Oval! Wink 12.9's are pretty cool too! Grin
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2007cc, 48IDFs, street car. 14.45@93 on pump fuel, treads, muffler and fanbelt. October 2017!
leec
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2543


« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 17:53:49 pm »

Yes, that was me!

Didnt see you?
Lee
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leec
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2543


« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 17:54:24 pm »

oh, and it did a 12.6 on saturday, 3rd ever run!
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Neil Davies
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3429



« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2008, 07:37:27 am »

Yes, that was me!

Didnt see you?
Lee

Went on Sunday with my girlfriend and her dad, sat in the stands for a while and saw a couple of runs. Wandered past your car in the pits but you weren't there (well no-one was there!) and after we'd had some lunch  and watched a bit more you'd gone home! Cheesy
Congrats on the 12.6 too! You getting caged up over the winter?
Logged

2007cc, 48IDFs, street car. 14.45@93 on pump fuel, treads, muffler and fanbelt. October 2017!
Bewitched666
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 863


Bewitched


« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 12:19:18 pm »

W130 Cool
Logged

Fast vw beetle's rule
Ohio Tom (DdK)
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 72



« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2008, 00:18:25 am »

here is my recommendation based on having built and used these cams in different motors.

You said that you'd like it to be relaible,.... with lots of torque.... and the CompRatio around 9.5/1...
For that I would NOT go with the FK-46, The FK-87, or the 86-C.
All of those cams run best with lots more compression.... More like 10/1 or11/1 is needed to get the full potential of those cams.
Also, those cams with your 1.4 rockers will need some serious valve springs and frequent services to keep running right.
 In my opinion (not to ruffle any feathers) .... Not exactly "relaible" combinations.

If you are looking for something that will run for several years (up to 30,000mi) between head services then I recommend the following:
- Choose a cam (with your rockers) that will keep the total lift under .500".You'll need to actually measure the cam and calcualte lift based on actual measured #'s (they never live up to the cam cards).
- Coose a cam that has as much duration in the 290-300deg adv. Your 2276cc of motor will keep the bottom end breathing well.
 
There are several reasons for choosing this;
1 The low valve lift will let the cam, lifters, guides, and valves last much longer.
2 The low lift will allow you to use regular ol' dual valve springs (shimmed up a little)....
3 and you won't be making them go soft so fast because of gentle cam ramps and low lift.

Now you might be inclined to think that with giving up that valve lift, you might be giving up  H-P. However,  for the intended "torque" range of the motor the CFM flow required won't be that high anyways.
A good set of ported heads with multi angle valve job will flow some good #'s Without having to open the valve so far. 
I build motors like this (low lift/long duration) for applications just like you describe.
It works espically well on turbo motors.
I have a 1904cc turbo in my street car. On 15psi it makes well over 200hp.
The valve lift is about .360".

Just my opinion to share...

Logged

Ohio Tom
08'.. 3 R/U...3 Win...
Jim Ratto
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7120



« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2008, 22:21:13 pm »

here is my recommendation based on having built and used these cams in different motors.

You said that you'd like it to be relaible,.... with lots of torque.... and the CompRatio around 9.5/1...
For that I would NOT go with the FK-46, The FK-87, or the 86-C.
All of those cams run best with lots more compression.... More like 10/1 or11/1 is needed to get the full potential of those cams.
Also, those cams with your 1.4 rockers will need some serious valve springs and frequent services to keep running right.
 In my opinion (not to ruffle any feathers) .... Not exactly "relaible" combinations.

If you are looking for something that will run for several years (up to 30,000mi) between head services then I recommend the following:
- Choose a cam (with your rockers) that will keep the total lift under .500".You'll need to actually measure the cam and calcualte lift based on actual measured #'s (they never live up to the cam cards).
- Coose a cam that has as much duration in the 290-300deg adv. Your 2276cc of motor will keep the bottom end breathing well.
 
There are several reasons for choosing this;
1 The low valve lift will let the cam, lifters, guides, and valves last much longer.
2 The low lift will allow you to use regular ol' dual valve springs (shimmed up a little)....
3 and you won't be making them go soft so fast because of gentle cam ramps and low lift.

Now you might be inclined to think that with giving up that valve lift, you might be giving up  H-P. However,  for the intended "torque" range of the motor the CFM flow required won't be that high anyways.
A good set of ported heads with multi angle valve job will flow some good #'s Without having to open the valve so far. 
I build motors like this (low lift/long duration) for applications just like you describe.
It works espically well on turbo motors.
I have a 1904cc turbo in my street car. On 15psi it makes well over 200hp.
The valve lift is about .360".

Just my opinion to share...



This was much same thinking I put into my 94 x 78 "semi-daily" driver. Conservative lift, and more duraton than some may feel comfortable with. I've run cams with near or over .600" @ valve, and there was never an easy answer. It was either run an extreme spring, which made me nervous about oil temp and cam/lifter/lash cap/rocker wear or keep a REAL close eye on VW duals. Honestly, after a few hard runs and commuting combined, the dual springs were dying. I ran 86C with Scat 1.4's and 4046 dual springs, and after a few months, the springs were down under 110lb on seat (they went in @ 165). I never bothered to see where they were after they died at full lift, but they went in around 310-320. This was when I had time to be doing this stuff all the time, and had unlimited access to parts whenever I wanted, and a Rimac.
I think the dual springs were getting abused beyond what they were comfortable with.
I went to ERCO triples and a cam that lifted .620" and oil temp went higher, plus car was just a total prima donna after that. I hated it and NEVER drove it.
So this latest 94 x 78 really is the best of all worlds for me now. The cam is 272 degrees @ .050" (306 adv), .404" at lobe and lifts valves about .525" with Scat 1.25 rockers. I run Bugpack 4046's shimmed .100" from dialed lift (every valve checked) and 9.7:1. The engine gets driven about 1000-1200 miles a month, like my "normal" driver (Subaru), and pulls very well off idle, and to over 7000, with 42mm vents, gets an average of 25mpg and no funny stuff going on with valve adjust, guide wear, oil temp, valve noise...etc. The cam, for anybody that is interested, is from Pauter Machine, the R6E8, Mario over there turned me on to it.
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leec
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2543


« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 11:25:08 am »

Yes, that was me!

Didnt see you?
Lee

Went on Sunday with my girlfriend and her dad, sat in the stands for a while and saw a couple of runs. Wandered past your car in the pits but you weren't there (well no-one was there!) and after we'd had some lunch  and watched a bit more you'd gone home! Cheesy
Congrats on the 12.6 too! You getting caged up over the winter?

Yeah, needs a cage over the winter.
Going to cvontact Jim Smith soon
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