Can we identify these heads?????

[Lee.C]

they could be old FEBI german heads. BTW not all headports stamp there stuff that could be the old owners first/last. UD.

Very good point - I just thought it was worth asking as these are the ONLY marks/stamps on these heads 

Monkiboy - get them flow tested. If you do not have a place over there you can pack them and send them to me and I will bring them to JPM for you to get them tested and send them back.... no wait... that depends on the flow results.... Nah.. I will of course return the heads safely.

BRBB

I am also not too bothered about getting the flow figures as Matt Keene seems more than happy with them and he seems to know his stuff ( )

I may get it done just out of interest - Kalle I will drop you a pm later tonight 

[roland]

There is also a French shop that do the job not far from Paris.
it would maybe be cheaper to send them there than to Norway?

I guess there are a couple of flowbenches closer than norway or france, those UK guys are pretty in love with cars in general so it shouldn't be too hard to find if Lee wants to...

[Fasterbrit]

Does John Maher have a flow bench? Failing that, let someone like Lee Maynard have a look at them - I know he knows a hell of a lot about heads!

Yes, I  believe John Maher does now have a flow bench. Maybe it's worth giving him a ring and getting him to do a test. Would be nice to find out some figures - especially port velocity. Smallish ports with very good velocity (the speed at which the air/fuel flows through the port) can work just as well as big ports with low velocity - particularly on something that is mostly street driven.

There is much more to a head other than the size of its port. Multi-angle valve seats, back-cut valves and good combustion chamber design help make a head work. Ultimately, is all about balancing the all the factors with one another. A huge port with shrouded valves and a poor valve job is not going to work anywhere near as well as a well ported and sorted head even if it appears mild...

There is a huge difference between port flow and port velocity. People tend to get carried away with huge ports and fantastic flow figures. You can have all the flow you like, but if the velocity is low you will have a motor that is very highly strung and wont make much power below a certain rpm. True, it may well make good HP when it finally comes on cam, but every day driving will be far from ideal.

The objective is to fill the combustion chamber with as much air/fuel as possible on every cycle even when the rpm is low. The engine has only X time to fill the chamber. If air flow is rushing into the chamber at a greater speed due to good port velocity, it fills the chamber more quickly, therefore bigger bang. Bigger bang = greater torque. Jackpot .

Lee's idea with this engine is sticking close to the roots of VW racing. Back in the day a 40 mm inlet valve was a BIG valve and the likes of Comp Eleminators with 48x40 valves were a long way off in the future. Maybe we have gotten carried away and spoilt for choice these days, but the legends back in the day used to run 12s no problem with comparatively conservative motors. Yes, some of them even ran SPG cranks for their sins. The object of this exercise is to make about 150 horsepower, which should be easily attained with 2180 cc, the right cam, 48 IDAs and these heads. Oh, and a good engine build...

Long live round ports and roller bearing cranks

[Lee.C]

"Maybe we have gotten carried away and spoilt for choice these days, but the legends back in the day used to run 12s no problem with comparatively conservative motors. Yes, some of them even ran SPG cranks for their sins. The object of this exercise is to make about 150 horsepower, which should be easily attained with 2180 cc, the right cam, 48 IDAs and these heads. Oh, and a good engine build..."

THANKYOU Matt there are ALOT of very good points in your post but I think the ouote above about sums it up 

This is project is really NOT about "all out power" its about building an engine I've always wanted to build and RUN,
I also want it to be as "period correct" as possible ( I hate that term though!) oh yeah there is also that COOOOOOOOL Factor

[ugly duckling]

should be a nice set for a 70s period small CI engine. UD.

[Lee.C]

should be a nice set for a 70s period small CI engine. UD.

Thanks Jeff that boosts my confidence a little

[John Maher]

Does John Maher have a flow bench?

Yes, I  believe John Maher does now have a flow bench.

Matt and Neil are correct - the JMR flow bench....



Ideally you make cam choice AFTER you know the flow and velocity data
... bit like choosing gear ratios once you know the engine's power and torque curves

It may turn out the heads you have are not the best choice for good low and mid-range performance
Can't mask a head deficiency with cam, rockers, carbs etc

Matt's right.... huge ports can flow plenty of air but the cfm number should be judged on cfm per square inch of flow area i.e. EFFICIENCY of the port

Big ports and impressive cfm numbers may work well on a high rpm drag race motor but when fitted to an engine intended for street use could be a pain to live with on a daily basis

Personally I'd never handicap my choice of cam (or any other component) based on Cal-Look fashion-police styling points... takes all sorts    
In the old days major surgical procedures were performed without the aid of anaesthetic...

With regard to extracting good performance from conservative ports and valve sizes see attached graph



2110cc designed for a bus

...strong low and mid-range torque took top priority
Just finished testing yesterday and with a slight change in jetting peak figures are now slightly higher than those in the graph... 153bhp @ 6000rpm and 160ftlb @ 4500rpm

Fairly conservative stuff....
Engle 120, 1.25 rockers, 40mm x 35.5mm valves (JMR modified heads), 40IDFs.
The key ingredient is the small, fast efficient port design.
I could achieve the same cfm numbers with a lot less work by fitting larger valved heads but port velocity would fall, engine would make less torque in the rpm range it'll spend most of its time and throttle response would be lazy.

One of the best examples of super efficient small port heads I've ever seen was on the JPM 1603cc engine featured elsewhere on this forum
Proof positive that bigger isn't always better

With flow data you have a good idea of maximum bhp potential
Once you know lift at which flow increase tails off, you have a target peak lift figure to aim for.
If you have a duration figure in mind this probably helps narrow cam choice down to 2 or 3 candidates

With the bus example shown in the graph, budget didn't stretch to a set of 1.4 rockers.
Based on flow data I knew I wanted close to .500" total lift but didn't want to run excessive duration to achieve it
The E120 w/1.25 rockers delivers an average .470" actual at the valve
That takes pretty good advantage of the flow characteristics of the heads (172cfm @ .500" - tested at 28" H2O)
.... more than some of the 'custom ported' 44mm valved heads I've tested

[Fasterbrit]

Excellent info from John as per usual . The flow bench takes all of the 'guess' work out of the equation. All the 'voodo' about 'must have' giant ports can easily be disproven by hard facts and experience. Looking at that power graph the power looks really smooth and revs surprisingly well!

[LGK]

Hi John,

Are those dyno-numbers corrected BHP and were these tests with fanbelt(without i guess)  and muffler ( with i guess?)
Anyway it's nice combo and your customer will be very pleased with his engine.

Regards Steve

[Fasterbrit]

Personally I'd never handicap my choice of cam (or any other component) based on Cal-Look fashion-police styling points... takes all sorts   
[/quote]

This is a great statement and one which I believe Lee is adhering to!
What cam would you recommend, John? Bear in mind Lee wants to see some revs to make the most of the roller bearings
Spec:
SPG 82mm
92mm
Old school heads with 42x35.5
48 IDAs

[John Maher]

Hi John,

Are those dyno-numbers corrected BHP and were these tests with fanbelt(without i guess)  and muffler ( with i guess?)

Regards Steve

Correct on all three counts... no belt, corrected as per SAE, muffler fitted
Correction factor for that particular test was an average of 1.0126

My baseline dyno tests are always carried out minus fanbelt, otherwise it becomes impossible to detect small differences in torque and power between similar specification engines
eg. two identical spec engines might run different cooling systems (VW vs Porsche), bigger or smaller diameter crank pulley, 55amp or 75 amp alternator etc

Although the basic engine specifications are identical, dyno figures could be significantly different depending on the cooling/charging combination
Could account for at least 10bhp variation

Difficult to evaluate changes if you're not comparing apples with apples
This is why it's also important to correctly apply a correction factor based on accurately measured intake air supply temp, air density etc

Note, those same heads with different cam and carburetion could make much more power but it'd all happen higher up the rpm range.
Also, gap between peak torque and peak power would narrow.
Fine for a Beetle maybe but exactly the wrong way to go for a heavyweight bus running a stock ratio Type 1 trans (as in this case)
Tailor the spec to suit the application

If engines are leaving here complete with tin, cooling etc, I also carry out tests in full street trim
Very useful to see the effect different cooling systems, pulleys, alternators etc have on power output

What cam would you recommend, John? Bear in mind Lee wants to see some revs to make the most of the roller bearings
Spec:
SPG 82mm
92mm
Old school heads with 42x35.5
48 IDAs

I've probably got an original Barney Rubble Terrosaur Caveman cam lying around here somewhere...
... based on a stock 25hp cam and reprofiled with an angle grinder by someone with a beard and flip-flops from California in the mid '60s
if anyone's interested, also got a set of super rare prototype BRM wheels that never made it into full production....
probably something to do with them being square
Cool as f**k though 

OK...serious now....
re cam choice...
like I said before, a flow test will give you some good pointers
Without the data you must rely on educated (or maybe uneducated?) guesswork
At this stage I hold my hands up - I haven't a scooby

Should also mention it's wise to flow the complete induction system to get the full picture
Little point in reworking a head to flow 200cfm if the manifold reduces it by 25%, then finding the carb (and vel stack/filter) chokes off another 30cfm
The cylinder can only receive what's allowed in by the entire intake system

[Lee.C]

Thanks for your input John  It looks like I might be sending you up a pair of heads then 

[Jon]

like I said before, a flow test will give you some good pointers
Without the data you must rely on educated (or maybe uneducated?) guesswork
At this stage I hold my hands up - I haven't a scooby

What?? can't you tell how good the heads are by looking at pics of them??   
I wouldn't trust this guy Monkey

[nicolas]

very good info there. thanks for sharing and being so open about what you do.

[j-f]

very good info there. thanks for sharing and being so open about what you do.

Yes, It's very interesting for "young" people. 

Thanks John.

[Lee.C]

very good info there. thanks for sharing and being so open about what you do.

Yes, It's very interesting for "young" people. 

Thanks John.

Yeah us "Pups" need a little guidence from the Masters 

[Fasterbrit]

I've probably got an original Barney Rubble Terrosaur Caveman cam lying around here somewhere...
... based on a stock 25hp cam and reprofiled with an angle grinder by someone with a beard and flip-flops from California in the mid '60s
if anyone's interested, also got a set of super rare prototype BRM wheels that never made it into full production....
probably something to do with them being square
Cool as f**k though 

That's the funniest quote I've seen on this forum for ages .
Is the terrosaur cam painted purple by any chance?

[Martin Greaves]

Lee if you are after some period heads why not try and get this type.

[Lee.C]

Lee if you are after some period heads why not try and get this type.

Now those are COOOOOOOOOOOOL - any idea what they are - purely out of interest 

[Rick Sadler]

Lee if you are after some period heads why not try and get this type.

Now those are COOOOOOOOOOOOL - any idea what they are - purely out of interest 

Arao Engineering Heads

[Fasterbrit]

Wow! Look at the size of the inlet valves

[Lee.C]

Hmmm a roller crank and a pair of those - Sounds interesting 

[Lee.C]

Just thought I'd drag this thread back - I just sent these heads to Ian Clark to have them built up - Here's what he sent me when he'd checked them out:

Hi Lee.
 
Heads turned up today all safe. These are a better casting than the epco but still not really sure who made them but it doesn't really matter I suppose. It's who worked on them that is interesting as they're nicely done, not too crazy but I'm sure they'll flow some great numbers. I had some stock heads reworked by Fumio once (they're on Phil West's brothers car,1776) small round ports but very similar to these. That's how they used to do it back then as they had limits on piston size and valves so there was no need to hog it all out. He's tapered the valve seat/blended it into the port taper which is definately a nice touch and very time consuming/tricky to do, especially back then. But....these have been cut for high compression. I cc'd them and they hold 41cc which with your 82 x 92 combination and a deck height of .040' ( 1mm ) they give a compression ratio of 12.4:1. If I increase the deck to .060' ( 1.5mm ) the max. I will go to, it still gives 11.7:1. This is the upper limit for a street engine on V-Power 98oct pump gas

I will post some flow figures when he's done 

[dirk zeyen]

..... A SPG don't like that much compression

[spanners]

they may well be for a Circle track G.P Midget engine, they ran alky.
best regards Johnny.

[Lee.C]

Ok..... Ian later goes on to say that "Lil wooper" runs 11.8 on his SPG motor, And my friend "Robthemanx" runs 11.8 on his SPG motor, I have spoken with Gary (the guy who rebuilt/modified my crank) and he is more than happy with them runnning over 12:1 and has personally used his Pinned/welded/modified SPG's on Turbo motors well over 350bhp

The main problem is the Fuel - This isn't going to be a "Daily Driver" I just want to be able to drive it to a track run a 13 and drive home....

I/Ian could "Semi Hemi" the cambers for an extra 13cc which would bring it down to 10.5.... I'll be talking with Ian soon to finalize the details

[spanners]

your gonna rip those chambers out? all that history swept into a waste bin, 

[modnrod]

your gonna rip those chambers out? all that history swept into a waste bin, 

I agree, don't do it man.
Just cam it up, or mix 10-20% methanol into it, or both.

Bugger it man, just use straight methanol. A 40L tankful will get you nearly 300km on the street if you're careful enough, and another drum behind the seat to run a few laps down the strip.
When you're idling at the lights, try to sit just in front of the nearest convertible..........

[Jim Ratto]

Lee if you are after some period heads why not try and get this type.

Now those are COOOOOOOOOOOOL - any idea what they are - purely out of interest 

Arao Engineering Heads

Russ' shop is walking distance from my office. cool guy.

[andy198712]

very good info there. thanks for sharing and being so open about what you do.

Yes, It's very interesting for "young" people. 

Thanks John.

+1 Thanks guys 

makes me wonder if i've taken too much out on my head now!