closer gears worth it? UPDATE!

[Taylor]

I broke my trans here at the Vegas race back in october and have been practicing putting the trans back together with my trans jig. I have an advantage because it worked great before I broke it.   I broke the large pinion nut in half but I dont think anything else really happend. My question is how much of a difference do you think closer 3-4 would make in 1/4 mile times.

heres the scoop!

1785lb. car with driver
2054cc motor with real good heads and a 125 cam.
built stock geared trans with bone stock gears. 4.125 R/P, super beetle mainshaft, 1.26 .89, super diff and sway a way axles.

car out here in vegas runs 12.80s in the 100 mph range on slicks.

I ran the car all out in 3rd once and it ran 12.91 at 100 at 6800ish rpm
I ran the car shifting into 4th and it ran 12.84 at 101.6 at 5000ish  and it feals like crap.  It just feals like it is rolling not accelerating.

So how much do you think a 1.48, 1.125  3-4 set up will really help the car,   I drive it to the track so the 0.89 is nice but if 2-3 tenths are in the cards I would deal with it. its only about 18 miles.   Taylor

[Taylor]

oh yeah forgot to mention it will be my first trans rebuild.

[Zach Gomulka]

You've got a car that runs 12's through stock ratios... leave well enough alone!!

[Taylor]

Your probably right, I drive the car all over the place!

[dyno don]

go for it taylor..!! easy 3 tenths...i drove my notchback with a "4:37"/148 3rd/114 4th for years and dug the living crap out of it...even though it was only a single port 1600 i still managed to knock out some decent times 15:01 best with street tires...most of my hp vws when going from stock gears to close 3/4 always knocked off a minimum of 3 tenths or more....and made the car a blast to drive on the street or highway....hell if your not into the tight driving rpm band you could diversify with a larger rear tire if not too concerned about it...hope your doing well with the economy there in vegas...props to you and pops for the super build up on the blue meanie... >>just do it...you will love it..!! you young gearhead....LOL

[Sam K]

IMHO, close rario gears are a lot of fun for d4riving on the street, but not as fun if you want to do 75 mph on the freeway for a while. It all depends on what you want to do with the car. I've had a couple close ratio transaxles in my street car but I enjoyed driving it on the street more than drag racing it, so the last few times I had mine built with stock ratios and I'm much happier. If you are going to go close ratio, though, I suggest doing a lot of research before you choose your gear ratios. Ideally, I would get something that would have you going through the traps at the top of your powerband. Eric ballard from ERCO has always been very helpful with this sort of thing. In a perfect world, I would get a Berg 5 speed, but the cost is a bit prohibitive.

[Mike Lawless]

Taylor, just put some short tires on it to race with. Trade the 26" slicks for some 23" versions. Presto! close ratio trans.

[Zach Gomulka]

There ya go. 3" will make a big difference!

[Taylor]

good call Mike. The tires are about the same as the gears and I can still drive on the freeway with getting the finger!

[Mike Lawless]

Just for info, the 23 X 7.5 M&H doesn't have any wider cross section that the 26 X 6

[volksnut]

yes I know what you mean "It just feels like it is rolling not accelerating" When I hurt my 2017 I went with a 2176 and changed out my 148/104 to a stock geared trans....the fun factor is gone for sure, but now I can drive it anywhere....if your running high 12's with stock gearing a big kudos to you. You won't be happy if you do any highway driving with that 1.12 4th...I was rev'in 3000rpm @ 50 with the 1.04

[Cheesepanzer]

With a 4.12 R&P, a 1.48 3rd and 1.04 4th is a very nice compromise. 

Still, 12's with stock gearing is impressive.  Seems like a very nice combo.

Have you thought of swapping out the 1.26 3rd for an early 1.32?  Back it up with a .93 4th.

[airstuff]

I will run stock geared transmission with my FK-45

[Zach Gomulka]

With a 4.12 R&P, a 1.48 3rd and 1.04 4th is a very nice compromise. 

Not for me it wasn't... 3500 rpm @ 65mph with a 205/70? No thanks. The early 1.32 3rd might help a little, but I don't think it's worth digging into the gearbox for that small of a change. I've also heard the .93 4th gear is rubbish- they break in stock applications.

I still think that swapping to a short slick is the best way to have your cake and eat it too- but you better swap to a stinger as well. 3" shorter tire will put your apron (and muffler) an inch and a half closer to the ground!

[Cheesepanzer]

With a 4.12 R&P, a 1.48 3rd and 1.04 4th is a very nice compromise. 

Not for me it wasn't... 3500 rpm @ 65mph with a 205/70? No thanks. The early 1.32 3rd might help a little, but I don't think it's worth digging into the gearbox for that small of a change. I've also heard the .93 4th gear is rubbish- they break in stock applications.

I still think that swapping to a short slick is the best way to have your cake and eat it too- but you better swap to a stinger as well. 3" shorter tire will put your apron (and muffler) an inch and a half closer to the ground!

I've never been a fan of swapping tire sizes to lower your et.  Reason being, you eventually gotta reinstall your nice looking wheels and the car is back to running slower.  Swapping out the wheels for some goofy looking short tires may help you determine the gearing you want, but when its all said and done, your car still looks goofy.    If you can gear your car to run the target et that you want and still balance the type of driving you do in the car, then you can simply worry about driving the car and enjoying it.

Oh, and he mentioned above that he broke the gearbox.  So he's already tearing into it.  So why not swap some gears out?

[Taylor]

I think I have decided to just make more power!  Then I will do everything I want.

Car will still drive on the freeway at speed.
Car will go faster.
I wont look weird with the 23"s hahaha
 
So I am taking the motor to the Dyno on wed to get a baseline #

hey Mike how much faster do you think it would go in sac??

[redbluebug]

I think I have decided to just make more power!  Then I will do everything I want.

Car will still drive on the freeway at speed.
Car will go faster.
I wont look weird with the 23"s hahaha
 
So I am taking the motor to the Dyno on wed to get a baseline #

hey Mike how much faster do you think it would go in sac??

Now your are talking!

[ugly duckling]

thats farmer talk for ya.(NOW YOUR ARE TALKING). got to mess with ya now again there farmer shawn . back to the subject. ya MO POWER thats the ticket its called CUBIC INCHES.   UD.   

[redbluebug]

thats farmer talk for ya.(NOW YOUR ARE TALKING). got to mess with ya now again there farmer shawn . back to the subject. ya MO POWER thats the ticket its called CUBIC INCHES.   UD.   

Must be why there is a wasser on my engine stand      Power what every politician wants and what every trucker needs.   

[Taylor]

well the trans is junk.

I took it apart and it broke 1st gear. the case bore is good but the hole where the imput shaft goes into the bell housing is cracked.
the gear carrier is no good either
nd the R/P is cracked. 

Bummer deal  but I must rebuild. I think I am going to stick with the stock gears and build some more power.

I was happy with the 1.71 60" and the 12.81 time  ( I looked at the timeslip again and it was .81 not .84)

[Cheesepanzer]

Taylor, if you have to start over you might consider my suggestion above.  Find a late-model core to start so you have a 3.78 1st/2.06 2nd, and source out an early 1.32 3rd and add the .93 4th with either a 3.88 or 4.12.  It may help you find a tenth.   

[Mike Lawless]

I think I have decided to just make more power!  Then I will do everything I want.

Car will still drive on the freeway at speed.
Car will go faster.
I wont look weird with the 23"s hahaha
 
So I am taking the motor to the Dyno on wed to get a baseline #

hey Mike how much faster do you think it would go in sac??

Don't want to look weird with 23" tires? That cracks me up man! Are you gonna drive it to the track on slicks or change tires once you're there? Also, if you change from a 4.12 to a 3.88 with 26" slicks and a 3.78 first gear, it will hurt your 60 foot pretty severely unless you're making gobs of torque. Shorter tires lower your ratios across the board and will improve your ET, even if you do "look weird." It'll look even weirder falling on it's face on the starting line trying to pull too tall a gear.

Vegas is typically 3 tenths slower than Sac for a NA car.

[Taylor]

well I dynoed the motor last week at heads up performance, and it made 187 hp at 6500rpm and 170 ft lbs at 5100.  Now to just get the trans fixed and freshen the motor up, with a few new tricks and I should be back on the road

[Jason Foster]

I have dynoed at 174hp and 160ftlb at the wheels.  2386 ida's FK10 11to1 5.4 rods
Have done a 12.56 at 102 with a 4.12  s/b main shaft 1.26 and .82  and 7.77 at 88mph in 1/8th
with MH 215 65 15 DOT slicks
This was with 1.7* short times

  New trans is 3.88 3.75 2.26 1.31 .89     (this is to be 1/4 in third gear)
Have only ran 1/8th did a 7.90 at 88 in 90 degree weather at drag day.
did a 1.61 short time with new trans.

  It can be done Taylor.  It cruises real nice on the freeway too bud.